Episode 52: JFK - The Men Who Killed Kennedy - "The Love Affair"

Episode 8: "The Love Affair"

Judyth Vary Baker claims she was Lee Harvey Oswald's mistress and that the two of them worked on one hell of a creepy plot involving turbo cancers. Is this true?

Links:

All eps can be found here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G0XNiu-yutk

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Men_Who_Killed_Kennedy

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Need more? You can visit the website at: https://consaracytheories.com/ or my own site at: https://saracausey.com/. Don't forget to check out the blog at: https://consaracytheories.com/blog.

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Transcript

Transcription by Otter.ai.  Please forgive any typos!

SUMMARY KEYWORDS

JFK assassination, Lee Harvey Oswald, Judith Vary Baker, cancer research, clandestine project, anti-Castro plot, bio-weapon, David Ferrie, Alton Ochsner, Mary Sherman, Jack Ruby, Kennedy murder, conspiracy theories, military involvement, ethical concerns.

Welcome to con-sara-cy theories. Are you ready to ask questions you shouldn't and find information you're not supposed to know well, you're in the right place. Here is your host, Sara Causey. 

Hello, hello. Thanks for tuning in. In tonight's episode, I will review episode eight of the men who killed Kennedy Docuseries titled the love affair. This was released in 2003 and I remember when I watched it for the first time. It was another Holy smokes. If even a scintilla of this information is true, if 99.9% of it happens to be totally bogus, but point 1% of it is actually true, this is completely crazy and amazingly disturbing. So I'm gonna crack open my ginger ale. Wish that I had something a lot stiffer than that, and we will settle up and take this ride when we think about an episode titled the love affair, especially when so much has been written about Kennedy and his proclivities and he cheated on Jackie just by title alone. You're thinking that this is probably going to have something to do with JFK sex life, but it doesn't. The love affair is actually in reference to a woman named Judith very Baker who claims that she was the side chick of Lee Harvey Oswald. And according to her, at the very beginning of this episode, she feels that Oswald was actually a hero, and he was a loyal Marine, a loyal US citizen, and he deserves better than what he's gotten through history. We learn that Judith as a young lady, is like some sort of science prodigy, like in particular, she has this passion to be the researcher that finds a cure for cancer, and evidently, she's crazy good at cancer related research, even as a high school girl, as as a young woman, she has this gift. She says that she was able to give lung cancer to mice faster than anybody else had ever been able to do it, which, quite frankly, sounds freaking terrifying to me, and that her work captures the attention of the US military, and that she sent to some prestigious Center in Buffalo, New York to further her studies. We're told that Judith, very Baker, meets Alton Ochsner, who's this rabid anti communist, and she doesn't know it, but she's actually being drawn into clandestine research. Judith's sister asserts that because she was always in a lab and she was focused on data and non human type things. She was gullible, and it was easy for Judith to be taken advantage of. So she didn't realize at the time exactly what kind of a tangled web she was being pulled into. So we fast forward a little bit to the spring of 1963 we're told that Dr Ochsner tells Judith that he wants her to come to New Orleans to work with another doctor in like a bone cancer lab named Mary Sherman. At this time, Judith is like 19 kind of naive and sheltered. This is her first time to really be away on her own. However, she does have a fiance, and he's supposed to be joining her in a couple of weeks. She's taken a room at the Y as she waits for the fiance to show up, and she decides to go to the post office to send off some mail. As she's in the post office, she says that she dropped a newspaper, and this man behind her, who's clean cut picks it up, and the two of them have a little smile. You know, there's a little bit of chemistry there. And he asks if he can walk her home. And she agrees. She tells us that the clean cut man who walks her home is Lee Harvey Oswald, and that the two of them have this immediate, instant chemistry, immediate instant connection. And she describes it as being love at first sight. She says that Oswald, like takes her under his wing, since New Orleans was his hometown, he knows his way around, and they go to a restaurant. And she meets David ferry. He's introduced as like Dr David Ferrie, but also Captain David Ferrie, because he was in like a pilot's uniform, and she said at the time, he was working for Eastern Airlines, or she thought he was. She also says that David Ferrier just had that personality type where he could speak intelligently about pretty much any topic, and then get onto the topic of cancer research. And much to her surprise, David. Ferry can converse very fluently in these arcane topics related to cancer research, which seems a bit odd. Now, Judith claims that David Ferrie not only knew Ochsner, but also knew Mary Sherman, and referred to Mary Sherman as a friend, and he said that he had some cancer related research that he was working on that he wanted Judith to check out. So later on, Judith and Oswald go over to David Ferry's apartment, and she describes this like hodgepodge of garage sale type furniture, but he has books on nursing. He has some kind of diff co manual that people unless somebody was involved in cancer research, there'd be no reason for them to have a manual like that at their house. She said that they stayed there for hours and that she took quote, reams of notes on the things that David Ferrier was saying, According to Judith, in the course of this conversation, David ferry starts to tell her about a plot that's going on between David Ferrie Ochsner and Mary Sherman. She expresses to Oswald that she's getting kind of worried about these associations because she sees some kind of raucous party that happens at David Ferry's house, and in order to, like, calm her down, he takes her to meet guy banister, which I'm not really sure how that would calm somebody down, but I guess the subtext here is, is all of this legit? Are these people actually doing some kind of secret government work, or are they just bullshit artists? According to Judith guy, banister vouches for Oswald, and says yes, Oswald is working on an anti Castro project. And this is where we thread the needle a bit, because supposedly David ferry and Ochsner and Sherman are all working on some kind of secret project that will take out Castro. This is all amidst an anti Castro background.

Lee takes Judith to an upper floor in Bannister's building, shows her all kinds of weaponry and claims that he one of the reasons why he's in New Orleans is because he's going to star in a training film so that they can show anti Castro rebels and young Cubans basically how to have an insurrection, how to overthrow Castro. Judith says that her fiance shows up, and she feels conflicted, because in the short amount of time that she's known Oswald, she's already started to fall in love with him, and believes that he's already started to fall in love with her, but he makes this confession that he had been violent to Marina, his wife, and she gets very turned off by that. And she says in the documentary, if he had not told me about his violence toward Marina, I don't think that I would have married Robert Baker. I think I would have gone after Oswald instead. Evidently, when the fiance shows up, he's there for like, one day, so they're able to get legally married and have a role in the hay, and then he leaves the next day, and Oswald just swoops in and takes up the caretaker role for Judith, I guess, and helps her get set up with an apartment to rent. So there's this meeting that takes place, finally, between Dr Ochsner, Lee Harvey Oswald, and Judith ferry Baker, allegedly, and she says that Lee wanted to go in ahead of her and have a few private words with Dr Ochsner. So then when she is allowed to come in the room, that's when Dr Ochsner tells her about this secret plot that they've been working on like some deadly, virulent cancer strain that they will give to Castro, and then Castro will take ill, and the cancer will spread rapidly, and it will just appear that he has died from natural causes. And she justifies this by thinking it. It's a way to get rid of him without it any evidence pointing to anybody, she apparently was very anti Castro. Supported the idea of Castro being removed from power. So why not use a biomedical means of doing so, which, again, I'm like, my god, if even a scintilla of this is true, it's horrifying when we think about carrot and the stick bribery. The carrot for her was that if she helped them with this project and kept her mouth shut, then she'd get to skip her final two years of college, and she would just go directly into medical school at Tulane from there, both Judith and Lee are assigned fake cover jobs at a coffee company in New Orleans. So they go to their little cover job and play their charade. But according to Judith, the real work that she was doing would take place in David Ferry's apartment that he had turned the kitchen into this massive laboratory, and that's where they were trying to work out this deadly, virulent strain of cancer that they could ultimately give to Fidel Castro. Judith says that they would take things like samples and cell cultures from David Ferry's makeshift lab inside his place, over to Mary Sherman's apartment. According to Judith Oswald is like this go between who is interconnected with her, with oxner, with David ferry, with Mary Sherman, etc, and he's able to sort of take. Materials, various places, and be like the gopher between all of these various people and their research. She tells the story of talking about how, when she was younger, she had had this dog that was a bad dog named Sparky that was kind of mean and would pee on her bed. And like Oswald or fairy, one of them makes the comment like, oh yeah, we know a sparky. That's a bad dog, too. One of these days, we'll introduce you to Sparky Rubenstein. And she didn't immediately connect the dots, but later she realized that this person they were referring to as Sparky Rubenstein was actually Jack Ruby. Judith claims that Jack Ruby told her that he had known Oswald for a long time. In fact, ever since he was a little boy. According to Judith, they tried to not sleep together, since they were both married to other people, but it was a losing battle. According to Judith, he was dissatisfied in his marriage, she was dissatisfied in her marriage, and so they just were overcome, finally, with their attraction for each other and continued a sexual relationship. According to Judith Clay Shaw knew about the two of them kind of felt sorry for them and would make hotel rooms available to them so they could have their little afternoon Tris, and then Lee would still be home at night. To his wife, she says that nothing that they were working on was moving fast enough to suit anybody. So she comes up with this idea of compromising Castro's immune system, first giving him the cancer after his immune system has already been suppressed, and then putting him in front of X ray after X ray after X ray, so that it's like with each treatment. I'm using big air quotes here. Treatment that's supposed to be curing the cancer, it's actually making him get worse and worse. Again, if even a scintilla of this is true, it's freaking terrifying. According to Judith, some of the same people that were interested in eliminating Castro also wanted Kennedy out of the picture, because they felt like he had been soft on Communism and soft on anything related to Cuba. So it was like, if we can get rid of Castro, then you'll have a wide variety of people that are happy. But if we can't, if we can get rid of Kennedy first, then we can just do whatever we want with Castro second. So it's like Judith's main point in being there is the biomedical, bio weapon research. But Lee is working on several things, and one of the things that she mentions is that allegedly, Oswald and banister are going around looking for like agitators and protesters, like students, people that might somehow be subversive to their cause. I guess in modern vernacular, it would be like Doxxing. It's kind of like they're going out to dox people that could potentially be a fly in the ointment to their anti Castro crusade. But then at the same time, Oswald has to polish up his pro Castro pro Cuba image, so that if he ever needs to get into Cuba, it will seem more believable. Of course, there are other potential reasons why he would need to be sheep dipped as looking like some kind of crazy communist sympathizer, but there you go.

So Oswald gets fired from the Coffee Company, and then so does she, because they're moving out of the anti Castro image of Oswald into the pro Castro image of Oswald. Meanwhile, Judith is also told that in order to test their virus capabilities, their cancer capabilities. They're going to need human test subjects. It's interesting to me where people choose to draw their ethical boundary lines, because it's like, apparently she doesn't have any problem with creating this turbo cancer, which just full stop, regardless of what you're planning to do with it, you're making a bio weapon. Why in the fuck would you even want to do that? You have to imagine that even if you think you're going to use that for the powers of good, anybody could use it for the powers of evil. It's like opening a Pandora's box. So why would you want to do that? And then, like, Okay, I'll do it, and I'll also do it because I believe Castro needs to be gotten rid of, but I'm gonna draw the boundary line on testing it on human subjects, because that's where she apparently gets up on her moral high horse and tells them that she has reservations about testing it on unwitting human subjects. Meanwhile, I'm sitting here like, well, what the hell did you think was gonna happen? All of this is so diabolical and so creepy to me. Frankly, I hope it's false, because if it isn't, if even a fraction of it is true, it is so disturbing. Absolute nightmare fuel. Judith says that she writes a note to Dr Ochsner, she only signs it by her initials and tells him that she objects to human beings being used in this stage of the trial. And he gets furious with her and tells her that she should never leave a paper trail like that. If she had objections, she should come and tell him in person. But then he also ominously tells her that both she and Lee are. Expendable in the project. She tells the story that she and Lee went to Clinton, Louisiana in a black limo that was driven by Clay Shaw. This is a story that we've heard variations of before. She alleges that David ferry, Lee Oswald and Clay Shaw were all involved in this trip to Clinton to inject unwitting victims in the mental hospital with the cancer virus that they had come up with in the lab. Within a certain window of time they had to conduct the test to see whether or not their maniacal, awful, diabolical experiments had taken or not. And so they made Judith dress in a white outfit, so she would appear to be like a nurse, and they take her up there to the mental hospital so she can start running the test to see if any of these poor people are going to become victims of this cancer. And even though it had only been 72 hours since one of the prisoners was injected, this particular prisoner was already thrashing about and had taken quite ill, and at that point, Judith realized that they had, in fact, been successful in creating this diabolical turbo cancer. Judith says that Dr Ochsner is still really mad at her because of her back talk and the fact that she wrote him a note, so there's a potential paper trail. So he reneges on his promise that she'll get to skip the rest of college and just go straight to Tulane. And she realizes that she needs to get the hell out of New Orleans. She says that that she and Lee have one last tryst at a motel room, and that they make this agreement that down the road, because neither one of them is allegedly happy with their spouse down the road, they're gonna go to some city in Mexico where there was Charlie India, alpha contacts. They're like gonna escape to this particular city and get married down there and just live happily ever after in Mexico. So after she leaves New Orleans, she finds out that the patient who was so ill has died from this turbo cancer, and that allegedly, you know, the mysterious trip that Oswald makes to Mexico City, well, according to Judith, that was because he had the deadly materials that he was going to turn over to somebody who could be trusted to inject Castro with said turbo cancer. Supposedly, Oswald is told that hurricane Flora had disrupted the plans to murder Castro, and that's the reason why his trip to Mexico City and then his attempt to try to get into Cuba, all of that turned into such a snafu because the hurricane caused them to just abort the plan. She says that Oswald is given a new assignment, and just like with the coffee company, it's all set up. He doesn't have to really do anything. He will work at the Texas School Book Depository. She also says that through David ferry and some kind of connection he had to the mafia, they set up some kind of phone line so that Judith and Lee are able to communicate with each other without really, like, you know, phone bills and things that would tip anybody else off that the two of them are still in contact with one another. And the story really, from here continues to get weirder, even though we've left the realm of highly, highly disturbing bio weapons, we're into this territory now where Judith claims that Oswald's telephone calls to her via this toll free mafia hotline are getting more and more desperate, and that he's been told that there's this plan to murder Kennedy. It might happen at Dealey Plaza. It might happen at the trademark but like, he's not gonna leave Dallas alive. Wherever. We have to pop him. We're gonna pop him. And according to Judith Oswald, thinks that he can stop this plot from the inside. She claims that the Sunday before Kennedy's murder, he's saying things on the phone, like, I'm not scared to die, some things are worth dying for. If I can save his life, if I can try to make a difference in this, I'm willing to do it. I'm just worried about my kids, because I don't want my kids to grow up thinking that I did this, and I'm sure that they're going to try to blame me. So according to her, like the Sunday before it happens. He's already convinced that he's going to be pointed out as the Patsy they have their final phone call the Wednesday before the murder. And he is saying like, I'm in too deep. I've already penetrated the cell. I have to stick with it. And then he also reminds her that if he did try to get out, all of them would be murdered anyway, including him, his wife, his kids, possibly Judith and her family. So it's like, I'm already in this I've got to see it through to the to the to the conclusion, and maybe I can save Kennedy's life. And she's crying in the interview, and she says that Oswald supposedly told her, look at all the smart people that should have. Bay. You should have babies. And so she says that she had five. Now, she claims that in the final moments of this last harrowing phone call with Oswald that he says specifically like he starts naming names, he points out Billy Sol Estes and Bobby Baker, but says not that they are directly involved, but just that they have some connection to this murder plot. I will butt in at this point, because the narrative that we get often from people on the left or from people who claim to be on the left anyway, which is surprising. You'd think that it would be right wingers coming out with this, but the accusation in modernity that we get from people on the left is that Kennedy was probably going to be impeach maybe it was better the way that things happened. He got to die an imaginary hero. I recorded a whole episode about that. I think it was episode number four that I did on this podcast was about the we did y'all a favor narrative that I find so repugnant, better that he died an imaginary hero, because he probably would have been impeached for sex scandals. Meanwhile, when you really look at what was going on this whole debacle around LBJ with the likes of Billy so Estes and Bobby Baker, there were quite a few scandals brewing up that involved LBJ, not that involved Kennedy. Now Judith also claims that Oswald told her that he thought his handler, I'm using air quotes her handler from the Charlie India Alpha was actually David Attlee Phillips. Now we're talking about the realm of accusations. We're talking about words like supposedly and allegedly. It's not that I'm telling you this. I'm just repeating what Judith Baker says in this Docu series. Judith claims that after Oswald is arrested and then charged with not only the murder of tippet, but the murder of JFK, that David Ferrier calls her, and he's frantic, and he tells Judith, just keep your mouth shut. I'm going to try to get to Houston, and I'm going to try to get in contact with my people, and I think I've got enough contacts that I can figure out what's really going to happen to Lee. And she said that even though David Ferrier was telling her to keep her mouth shut and to stay calm, he actually sounded like he was the one that was frantic. Judith says that she was watching the live television coverage when Ruby killed Oswald, and for several hours, she doesn't even really, really remember what happened. She the friend that was with her at the time, screamed, and there was a lot of crying and she felt suicidal. She says, about two weeks after that, David Ferrier calls her again to reiterate that she needs keep her mouth shut and not say anything to anybody else, and that there were members of the mafia that were watching her, and that she was supposed to just fade off into obscurity. Don't do anything notable, don't have your name in the newspaper, just fade into the background because we're watching you, and you can be eliminated if you start making problems for us. This episode ends with her saying that she's coming forward at great personal cost to herself, that her children were grown when she decided to come forward with this message, but it was still very upsetting to them, because she's going on television, telling the world that she was the mistress of this man who was accused of murdering the President, as with so very many things that relate to the death of John F Kennedy. There's a lot of debate here. There are people that claim Judith Vary Baker is a straight arrow, and everything she's saying is completely true. Her documents, like her, the documents she personally possesses prove what she alleges. There are other people that say she's a crackpot, she's looking for fame, or she's trying to make money, or maybe she's crazy, and she thinks that these things happened truly, but they didn't. I don't know. I've never met the woman. Have had no contact with her, so I can't speak to her as a person, same thing with her personal document cache. I've never seen it, so I don't know. It's a terrifying story, and I feel like I will end this episode really where I began this episode, if even a scintilla of this is true, it's horrifying, especially now, having lived through the and the stabby wabbies. I mean, you start thinking about the high level of interest that the military industrial and military intelligence complexes had on bio weapons, and it's terrifying. It's absolutely terrifying. So to me, even if we assume that she may have embellished some things here and there, or misremembered some things here and there, if the basic crux. Of her story is true. It's freaking terrifying. I leave it to you as always, check out the episode if you haven't already and come to your own conclusions. Stay a little crazy and I'll see you in the next episode.

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