Episode 54: JFK - The Men Who Killed Kennedy - "The Guilty Men"

Episode 9: "The Guilty Men"

This final episode was apparently so controversial and incendiary that THC felt the need to publish a rebuttal with good, decent historians on deck. 😆

Links:

All eps can be found here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G0XNiu-yutk

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Men_Who_Killed_Kennedy

https://spartacus-educational.com/JFKmcclellan.htm

https://www.montgomeryadvertiser.com/story/news/local/progress-opinion/2016/02/02/how-landslide-johnson-stole-win-texas/79691404/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Billie_Sol_Estes

https://spartacus-educational.com/JFKkinser.htm

https://spartacus-educational.com/JFKwallaceM.htm

https://spartacus-educational.com/JFKclarkE.htm

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Box_13_scandal

https://www.amazon.com/Johnny-We-Hardly-Knew-Fitzgerald/dp/B000C0EVZ8

https://spartacus-educational.com/JFKmarshallH.htm

https://spartacus-educational.com/JFKbakerB.htm

https://spartacus-educational.com/JFKoildepletion.htm

https://spartacus-educational.com/JFKmurchison.htm

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hotel_del_Charro

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Harold_Byrd

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Madeleine_Duncan_Brown

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cflugLN1ctE

https://www.alamy.com/st-525-27-63-21-november-1963-trip-tp-texas-houston-dinner-in-honor-of-congressman-albert-thomas-houston-coliseum-please-credit-cecil-stoughton-white-house-photographs-john-f-kennedy-presidential-library-and-museum-boston-image544993992.html

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Transcript

Transcription by Otter.ai.  Please forgive any typos!

SUMMARY KEYWORDS
JFK assassination, LBJ involvement, conspiracy theories, History Channel, mainstream historians, Pop Pop plot, Texas oil barons, Billy Sol Estes, Malcolm Wallace, Edward Clark, Clint Murchison, Hotel Del Charro, J Edgar Hoover, Madeline Duncan Brown, Oliver Stone.


Welcome to con-sara-cy theories. Are you ready to ask questions you shouldn't and find information you're not supposed to know? Well, you're in the right place. Here is your host, Sara Causey. 

Hello, hello, and thanks for tuning in. Tonight. We have made it to the final episode that was officially part of the Docuseries the men who killed Kennedy. And it's titled The guilty men, and it was released in 2003 the reason why I put it that way, is because, evidently, this particular finale was so disturbing, so incendiary and so controversial, that the History Channel felt compelled to record a rebuttal episode where they invited on a group of mainstream historians, very socially acceptable chaps to come on television and have this mea culpa of like, Oh, oops. I think we got it wrong in that final episode. We pushed the envelope too far. Sorry, guys. I will talk about that in a separate episode. For tonight, we will go through the guilty men and talk about why it was so incendiary and inflammatory. So pick up a cold beverage of choice, and we will saddle up and take this ride. You know, pretty much from the beginning that you're going to be in for a wild ride on this one, because the episode opens up with bar McClellan, who was an attorney for LBJ some of LBJ interests saying that there's no doubt in his mind that LBJ was involved in the pop pop plot. He wanted himself to become president, as well as to avoid any kind of prosecution for some of the legal hot water that he was getting into, I will but in here and say I think it's interesting that this Docu series could point fingers at a wide variety of other suspects, but as soon as they made this episode, it was like, Uh oh, it's a bridge too far. We're gonna have to call in the mainstream authority figures just sort of like how we have fact checkers nowadays for the internet. We're gonna have to call in the mainstream authority figures to rebut this episode, because you have committed a naughty that was just too naughty. They interview an expert named Ed Tatro, who tells the story of LBJ from early on, having a ruthless personality wanting to win at any cost. And he relays the story of one of lyndon's early political forays. It was a 1948 race where LBJ wins only by 87 votes. That it's like suddenly 201 votes were miraculously found. One of them was for Coke Stevenson, his opponent, and then the other 200 were for him. And it's just enough to put him up by 87 and he gets this sort of pejorative nickname, landslide Lyndon. I'm going to hop over now just for a second to the Montgomery advisor, because I know that sometimes when we're in a docu series like this, it becomes myopic, and there's a reason for that. I'm reviewing that episode or I'm reviewing that Docu series. So we're not necessarily ping ponging all over the place with other research. But I want to go over just for a minute to this article on the Montgomery advisor, and it's titled How landslide Johnson stole a win in Texas. And this was published in 2016 there are good many stories about elections in the 1940s and 50s where votes were bought and elections stolen. The most brazen and blatant stealing of an election occurred in the 1948 race for the US Senate in Texas. The players were coke Stevenson versus Lyndon B Johnson. Therefore it can also be classified as one of the most relevant robberies in American history, because if Johnson had lost, as he was supposed to, it would have dramatically impacted us history. Coke Stevenson was a legendary Texas icon. He was the epitome of a Texas gentleman and revered he was Texas's Horatio Alger and Davy Crockett combined. He raised himself from age 12, built a ranching Empire, was Speaker of the Texas House of Representatives and a very popular governor of Texas. Stevenson was above reproach. He would not lie, steal or cheat, and Texans knew that about old coke. On the other hand, Lyndon Johnson had already earned the reputation in Texas that he would continue to earn in Washington. That is, he would do whatever it took to win. He was totally corrupt and ruthless without any semblance of a conscience. Johnson had been a congressman from East Texas for six years when the US Senate seat came open in 1948 he made the decision to roll the dice and go for broke. Linda did not know that the legendary former governor coke Stevenson would enter the race. The initial poll had Stevenson about 68% to Johnson's 18% however, Stevenson had no idea to what limits Johnson would go to be a US senator. Johnson applied modern day politics to that era he entered. Polling and what it meant. In detail, he even used a helicopter to fly from town to town and land on court squares to speak and shake hands, and mostly he used negative and false campaign mailings to destroy the stellar Stevenson's reputation. Stevenson was from a different era. He refused to go negative and would not reply to any negative accusations, no matter how maliciously false. Now I want to really emphasize the next paragraph that I'm about to read, because it will become important to us in future episodes, Johnson was able to utilize this massive media blitz because he had more campaign funds than any candidate in Texas history. He had unlimited financial backing from the giant Brown and root company of Texas. They are now the Halliburton Corporation. They were then, as now, the recipients of gigantic government, government, government construction contracts. Johnson was their boy and would do their bidding as their senator. So they poured money into the race like water. End quote. I just want you to remember some of those company names, because I will be talking in a later episode about Russ Baker's book, family of secrets. And we'll probably have to do more than one episode about that book, because a good chunk of it, even though, ostensibly it's about the bush dynasty, a good chunk of the book comes back to the murder of JFK. And then, in addition to that, the corruption that we see within the Bush administrations, meaning Poppy bush and W both. So just put that in the back of your mind, this connection between LBJ, these Texas oil men and these conglomerate type corporations that can funnel untold sums of money into a campaign. Essentially, they can just buy an election if they choose to mark. McClellan says that the nickname that was actually used behind closed doors was lying. Lyndon, we're told now about how in 1984 Billy Saul Estes appeared before a grand jury. Ed Tatro comes back on and he says that, according to Billy Sol Estes, there were eight murders that had been perpetrated to somehow benefit LBJ. We're told that the first murder was Douglas Kinzer. There were other murders of people involved with Billy Sol Estes business enterprises that were corrupt at that point, as Ed Tatro is still talking like as a voiceover. The Docu series goes into this document, and we can see a copy of it where it literally has murders on the on the document. Hopefully you've watched this for yourself. You've come to your own conclusion, if not, I hope that you soon will, because you need to be watching all of this and making up your own mind. But it literally, it says murders, and then number one is the killing of Henry Marshall. Two, the killing of George krudek. Three, the killing of Ike Rogers and his secretary. Four, the killing of Harold Orr. Five, the killing of Coleman Wade. Six, the killing of Josefa Johnson. Seven, the killing of John Kinser. And eight, the killing of President Kennedy. So obviously we have to ask ourselves, is this true? Mean? Is it even possibly true? And we also have to remember that there was legal pushback. The History Channel got in trouble. They got their hand slapped. Mega big time for airing this episode when it comes to criminals that have these accusations, I think of Maury Terry's book The Ultimate Evil, for example, and some of the various things, not only that, Berkowitz told to Maury Terry, but other jailbirds told to Maury Terry, and you're like, Well, I don't quite know what to make of all of this. And in the episode that I recorded about the book The Ultimate Evil, I feel like the more compelling part of that whole ball of wax is the idea that there was more than one Son of Sam now, whether they were actually going into a cavern in Yonkers and playing pretend that they were worshiping the devil or not, I don't know, but you had these witnesses who said the person that pulled the trigger was tall and thin with blonde hair. Then there was another shooting that may have been perpetrated by a woman. So it's like, All right, well, we know that that couldn't have been David Berkowitz, if somebody identified the person that did the shooting as being tall and thin with blond hair or being female, we know that that couldn't have been David Berkowitz, then you're left with this question of, was there some kind of murder cult? Again, setting aside the whole idea of Satanists in a cavern somewhere doing rituals and murdering dogs and whatever else they're accused of doing. Was there some kind of murder cult that was terrorizing the streets of New York City? I mean, that's creepy, but how much credence do we give to people that are making jailhouse confessions or trying to be jail house snitches? I don't know. I don't have a clear answer to that question. The Docu series interviews a man named Glen sample, who was one of the authors of the book The men on the sixth floor. Full disclosure, I have not read that book yet. There are so many books, so very many books that relate to JFK, whether you're talking about his life, his politics, his sexual predilections, his murder, the potential cover up of said murder, etc, etc, at all. There are only so many hours in the day. I have a certain appetite for reading books about the potential cover up and as well as just his politics and his life, I have, as I have said before, I'm not interested in knowing some tawdry list of every gal that he ever knocked boots with that's just not of interest to me, for anybody really mean any of that smutty Hollywood stuff. It's like, I don't care. Life is too short to worry about two people that got together for an hour and bumped uglies. Just my opinion, and I could be wrong, but Glenn sample is talking about Malcolm Wallace having gone to school in Texas, and then after he finishes, he apparently gets recruited by LBJ to be part of the Department of Agriculture. We're told now that Malcolm Wallace started having an affair with LBJ sister, and that his sister was apparently also having a relationship with this John Kinser, guy who owns, like, a golf course or a miniature golf course in Texas. So you got, like, allegedly, a weird love triangle going on here. We're told now that Kinser was shot and Malcolm Wallace was arrested, and it seems to be an open and shut case, I would say, especially if people knew that there was a love triangle going on there. If you've watched, you basically any episode of Dateline or 48 hours, you've seen things like that. Billy thought he was the only one in Alice's life, or was he like Keith Morrison, so it appears to be an open and shut case. But not so fast, because Malcolm Wallace hires a hot shot attorney. We're told by Glenn sample that LBJ holes up in a hotel room while Wallace's trial is going on, and he's taking an active interest in the trial. Wallace is convicted, but through allegedly, LBJ is political influence and political pull, he's able to get off with a five year suspended sentence. We're told now about a man named Edward Clark who was very powerful within the state of Texas, and he and LBJ had become friends, I think going all the way back to, like, the 1930s he's another name that comes up as it relates to big oil and the oil barons of Texas at that time. Now, according to bar McClellan, Edward Clark, was so powerful that it was like he had a finger in every pie that was going on in Texas government. And he accuses Edward Clark of having people killed and of having money laundered in 1966 bar McClellan joins this law firm of Clark, Thomas and winters that was based in Austin, and one of the partners was, in fact, Edward Clark. And he starts talking about things that he sees and hears at this law firm. Barr claims that he had a conversation with another attorney at this firm named John Coates, and that John Coates allegedly said to him, if the truth be told, Edward Clark had a role in the murder of JFK. He says that even though he chose not to believe it at the time, it stuck with him. It's not the kind of statement that one would easily forget. He tells another story of riding with an attorney named Don Thomas, who was also part of the firm, says that this man did not fly, so anytime they had business in Texas, they just had to road trip it. And Don allegedly makes this comment to bar I'm the only man alive who knows what really happened with Box 13. That's a reference to that stolen election from the 40s. He says, sometimes it's better to just listen and not talk. So he didn't say anything. And then Don adds, but Clark took care of it in Dallas. So at this point, bar starts to put two and two together, the box 13 scandal. But then Edward took care of it in Dallas. What the hell does that mean? So he thinks back to the earlier conversation. Well, truth be told, he was involved in the murder. Oh well, he took care of it in Dallas. And so he presumes that that's what is meant, that everything was solved. All problems went away whenever Kennedy was murdered in Dallas. Barr says that he believes, beyond any shadow of a doubt, that Johnson was involved in the murder of Kennedy, and he went through Clark to make sure it was done. We're told about Henry. Marshall and how he had started to investigate the activities of Billy Sol Estes, and there were, like, some shady dealings with some cotton allotments. And it was clear that things were not above board. And allegedly, according to this Docu series, this conspiracy takes place between like Billy Sol Estes, Clifton, Carter, Malcolm Wallace and LBJ of like, we just need to get rid of this guy. If we can't bribe him, if we can't get him on our side, then we're just going to have to get rid of him. So on June the third, 1961 Marshall was found dead on his farm beside his pickup truck, and his boom stick was beside him, but he had been shot five times, and we're told that it was a suicide, which I'm not really sure to me, this goes back to like the magic bullet that zigzags around the motorcade like a bumblebee. I mean, even if you have just the most basic understanding of boomsticks, you know that that's not how it works. I'm not really sure how, if somebody was going to go out on their farm and kill themselves, that they would be able to shoot themselves five times. That seems awfully suspicious to me. Now, Marshall's son is interviewed for this Docu series, and he said that you could see signs of a struggle, and that on the passenger side door of the truck there was a dent from where Henry Marshall's head had gone into or been pushed into this door, and his eye was damaged at the time. So again, like if you were going to go to a remote area on your property to off yourself, you wouldn't slam yourself into the passenger side door of your vehicle and damaged your own eye like what would be the point of torturing yourself before you do the deed? Super suspicious. Henry's son says that when Billy Sol Estes was talking about this crime, he had implicated Cliff Carter and Malcolm Wallace as being the most involved in it. At this grand jury hearing, they decide that Henry Marshall was murdered, so they believe what Billy Sol Estes has said. Now we get to the stories about Bobby Baker, who was one of LBJ right hand men, and the commentator Ed Tatro alleges that Bobby Baker was involved in a little bit of everything from call girl rings to organized crime. It's also pointed out the antagonistic relationship that existed between LBJ and Bobby Kennedy, and that if there had been the opportunity to remove LBJ from the 1964 ticket and then potentially have him prosecuted or thrown in jail. There would have been people in the administration that would have supported that. They interview a man named Greg Burnham, and he talks about how Kennedy would be out in the public smiling, and he was popular and he was liked. And so people tend to think, Well, did a guy like that really have any enemies, and it belies the fact that, yes, actually there were a number of people in high places that did not like him and would have benefited from him not being there anymore. As I always say, when you start looking at people, whether they had any involvement in the pop pop or not, people that benefited from his not being there and people who actively disliked him, it's a bit like the line starts over there, and it's going to wrap around the block multiple times. As Burnham points out his desire to withdraw from Vietnam and to have everybody, all Americans, out of Vietnam by 1965 that would not have been good for the military industrial complex. And I feel like this is one of the things that as Gen X ers, we get accused of a lot. We get accused of all of us as an entire generation, even though, for the most part, Gen X is forgotten about. It's like the people born from 65 to 1980 just simply don't exist. The media is so in love with this generational clickbait between baby boomers, millennials and Gen Z, ers, it's like Gen X is largely just forgotten. We're a weird footnote in history for the most part. That's fine by me too, but it's like when it comes to Gen X, allegedly, all of us that were like in our teens and 20s, whenever Oliver Stone's movie came out in the early 90s, we all went to see it en masse, and we all believed that we were watching a literal historical documentary. And so we all have this weird sympathy for JFK based on bullshit from Oliver Stone. You. And one of the things that's pointed to, more specifically is Kennedy's agenda for Vietnam. You can go read Noam chomsky's book rethinking Camelot, which centers around the idea that Kennedy was a war hawk, just like the rest of them. He was not going to represent some big policy change in Vietnam. Therefore, when he was pop, popped. We didn't really lose anything. It wasn't like he was really, actually going to withdraw troops from Vietnam. He probably would have gotten every bit as embroiled as Johnson did. That's what you're supposed to think. As Gen Xers, we get labeled Kooks. We're just too stupid to know any better, because we all watched Oliver Stone's movie back in the early 90s, which is not true. I didn't see that movie for years. I didn't go to the theater to see it when it first came out. Really had no interest in that movie or in the life or death of JFK, either one. I don't think it's fair to paint an entire generation as a generation of nut bags over one movie that not everybody in my generation to see but this issue of Vietnam and what Kennedy intended to do is a huge sticking point. So we're also told about the Charlie India alpha and how JFK wanted to rein in their policy making. Bay of Pigs being a great example. We can't go around doing things like that. Your your power needs to be cut down to something more reasonable. Now, obviously that makes enemies. So we have the military industrial complex. We have the Charlie India alpha. And now we're going to go back to Texas and talk about these wealthy oil tycoons that also despise Kennedy. They bring up the oil depletion allowance. And Kennedy had talked about like proposals for tax reform, and one, one of the ideas that was tossed around was to do away with the oil depletion allowance, or at least change it significantly, so that it would be less generous to the oil men, and had that oil depletion allowance been removed, it would have represented a loss of about $300 million a year to these Texas oil barons. Now, just based on that alone, when you start thinking about, would you kill somebody for $300 million even in today's money, when we think about, you know the inflation and how, day by day the dollar becomes less and less valuable. Yeah, even in today's money, I think you could probably hire a hit man to do something for you for $300 million is this just a coincidence? I mean, it could be, but this is one of the things that's brought up in the documentary, is the oil depletion allowance and how that would have really hurt these Texas oil barons. Now we start to get into the story of Clint Murchison, who was a wealthy oil baron. He was politically influential in Texas. He was also buddied up with LBJ and we learned the weird story about this resort hotel in La Jolla California, called the Hotel Del Charro. So I'm going to go over just for a minute to the Hotel Del charros Wikipedia page, just so we can get independent information outside of this Docu series. The Hotel Del Charro was a resort hotel in La Jolla California, famous for its discrete hospitality to deal making, politicians, wealthy industrialists and Hollywood celebrities including Richard Nixon, Joseph McCarthy, J Edgar Hoover, John Wayne, William Powell, Elizabeth Taylor, Mel Ferrer and La Jolla native Gregory Peck. Now if we scroll down just a little bit, we will also read celebrity guests of the time included John Wayne, Elizabeth Taylor, Elizabeth Taylor, William Powell, Jimmy Durante and Betty Grable, along with murchison's Texas oil man friends, Effie and Wofford Cain Emily and Billy Byers and Jody and pug Miller, a Texas flag flew overhead, and there was a Dow Jones stock ticker in the lobby. We're also told about a man associated with Murchison who was named d h Byrd. Of course, he was also in the oil business, and we're told in this documentary that he was a frequent guest at the Hotel Del Charro. Some interesting factoids here, and you can go to the Wikipedia and look this up. This is not just information that's bandied about in the Docu series and can't be found anywhere else in the 1930s d h Byrd purchased the Texas School Book Depository in Dallas, which, of course, we know would be part of the scene of the 1963 murder of Kennedy, and he was also a co founder of the Civil Air Patrol. That should sound familiar to you. It's a name that we see associated with David ferry and with Lee Harvey Oswald, just a weird, random coincidence. Hmm, maybe so. So in the Docu series, the question becomes, how many people are potentially in trouble here? Murchison, LBJ, Bobby Baker, Billy Saul Estes like, how far down? Down, is this rabbit hole going to go, and then how many people could potentially be harmed by it? The researcher Ed Tatro points the finger at John Connally and says that Connolly and LBJ were big buddies, and that if you go all the way back to that 1948 box 13 vote rigging scandal, Connolly was a part of that as well, and this is information that you can look up independently. Connolly served as a campaign manager in LBJ 1946 re election to Congress, and then also in the 1948 Senate race. So this is not just information that we're only getting from somebody on this Docu series. So even though JFK was already thinking about re election, and he knew the importance of trying to carry the South, the question really becomes, like of all places like, why did he have to go to Dallas? Who lured him there? What was the purpose of it? Or was he alert there? Did he just decide to go on his own? And it was as decisions go, a really bad one that ultimately cost him his life, because fingers are pointed in this Docu series in the direction of John Connolly. Now I'm not saying that. I am saying that. I'm telling you that's what's being said in the Docu series. The allegation is that LBJ and John Connolly were in thick with each other, and John Connolly starts applying the pressure of like, well, you really ought to come to Dallas. You know, if we do this motorcade and C and B scene, it's really going to help and bring Jackie, because all the women like her. And it's interesting also, because this scene, sort of a precursor to all of this is described in the book, Johnny, we hardly knew you, that was written by David powers and Kenny O'Donnell. And they talk about, you know, there was all of this negative press. There was that welcome Mr. Kennedy, sarcastic newspaper ad. There was the wanted for trees and hand bill. And after seeing some of that negative press, JFK reportedly says to Jackie, we're heading into nut country today. But if somebody wants to shoot me from a window with a boom stick, nobody can stop it, so why worry about it? According to the book, Johnny, we hardly knew you, that's what he said. I laughed a little bit at the idea of nut country, because it's like, Well, yeah. I mean, if you're, if you are sort of an East Coast liberal, and then you have this group of right wing oil barons that hate your guts, I'm sure it is going to feel like you're going into nut country. We're told by Ed Tatro that Lyndon Johnson and his Texas cronies suckered JFK into coming to Texas now inter stage left, Madeline Duncan Brown, who claims that she was a long time mistress of LBJ honestly, she could be her own separate topic for a whole other episode. I yeah, I don't know who on earth would want to be touched by LBJ, the thought of him makes my skin crawl. I can't imagine getting into bed with him, but hey, you know, to each their own. I guess she claims that they had this long term sexual affair, and she also describes a very disturbing meeting. She claims that she was in love with him, and that her son, Steven, allegedly, was the son of LBJ. And there was even some kind of paternity lawsuit that was filed in regards to that. Again, this could be a whole other topic for a whole other episode, like an episode of, what do we make of all this? Is this legit or is it not? So? Suffice it to say, for the purposes of this episode, this woman claims that she was in a long term sexual relationship with LBJ. She was in love with him, and that, in fact, she had a son with him. This next part about the disturbing meeting, the alleged disturbing meeting, I'm actually just going to read it as close to verbatim as possible. Most of the time, I just have transcription done through otter, which is an AI program. It's not great. It's better than nothing, but it's not great in situations where I feel like something needs to be precise and it needs the human touch, I actually just have a professional transcriptionist that I hire, and I had her do this for me because I didn't want to misrepresent anything that said. Now this is allegedly right, and it's not me saying it, it's the people in the Docu series. So the narrator says, On the eve of Kennedy's Pop Pop, she attended a party at this house in North Dallas, the family home of oil billionaire Clint Murchison senior. There was an extraordinary guest list that night, and when they're saying she they're referring to Madeleine Duncan brown. So now Madeline is speaking. We had H L hunt, Murchison, Lyndon, Johnson made an appearance. We had Hoover. We had Richard Nixon. They were the most. Influential people there, but I was under the impression that since J Edgar Hoover was there, that it was to honor Hoover rather than anything else. When Lyndon came in, no one was expecting him. So when Lyndon arrived at Clint murchison's, they all went into a conference room, and you could just feel the atmosphere. When Lyndon came out, I was, of course, happy to see him. I did not know that he was going to be there, and he whispered in my ear at that time, those blank, blank Kennedys will never embarrass me again. That's no threat. That's a promise. So he departed, the party rapidly broke up after Lyndon departed, the narrator says a seamstress and companion may Newman provides information that this party took place at the Murchison family home on the eve of the pop pop. She lived and worked in another Murchison house in Dallas for Virginia Clint senior, second wife. She speaks here for the first time. Now we go to may Newman. I started working for Virginia Murchison in 1962 until her death in 1997 approximately 36 years I remember well, the night before the assassination, I worked with a man named jewel Pfeiffer, a black man, which was Virginia murchison's chauffeur. He got a call from her stepson, John, at the big house, they were having a party for a very special guest that was coming from Washington to go to the party by the name of Bulldog, which I found out later was J Edgar Hoover, and he said he was very excited about doing this, going on this trip out to the airport to take this very special guest to a very special party, a big party. And I asked him when he came back if he got a good tip, and he said no. And he was very, very upset he had to go back that night to take J Edgar Hoover to the airport to go back to Washington, and he still didn't get a tip. The narrator says, further verification of Hoover's presence in Dallas on the eve of the Pop Pop came from a friend of May's who worked at the Murchison family home. Now this is may Newman, speaking again. Beulah. May Holman, she was the cook at John and lupe's house, and she wanted me to go help her that night, which I didn't. But she told me she was cooking quail, and I wanted the recipe, so she gave it to me. She said there was a very important guest by the name of J Edgar Hoover, who was coming, and I should go out and help her so I could get to meet him. If it was a film star, I probably would have gone, but I didn't know who he was. No, not at that time. The narrator says, early the next morning, only a few hours before the Pop Pop Madeline, received a phone call from Johnson, who was back in Fort Worth with Kennedy. This is Madeline speaking again. Lyndon called me from the Texas hotel, and he was still irate. I said, Lyndon about last night, and he went to cursing. He used foul language all the time, and he said, those Kennedys, he repeated, they will never embarrass me again. That's no threat. That's a promise. And I'd like the entire world to know how I personally feel is the fact that Lyndon Johnson knew about the pop pop and was part of it. End quote, so that's explosive. Mean, even if we put all of the other accusations to the side that are made in this particular episode, that's pretty explosive. One of the problems that I have with this story is that, I mean, it's documented that on November 21 1963 JFK, along with Jackie and LBJ and his wife, were at a dinner in honor of Albert Thomas at the Houston Coliseum. I mean, he gives a speech there. You can listen to the audio of it at the JFK Library. I've also dropped a link where, if you want to watch some video, I don't think it corresponds the the images, I don't think correspond to the speech, but you can listen to the speech in its entirety if you want to. You can look at photos of how everybody was there at this trip. I don't I don't know how LBJ could have gotten to this dinner at murchison's house in North Dallas, if he had also been in Houston that same night. I mean, of course, obviously could have flown there, but I just find that a little bit suspect. And then, if you go to Wikipedia and you look at Madeline Duncan Brown's page there, they talk about how she provided a similar account on the old show, A Current Affair, but she's quoted on the show A Current Affair, as having said on the day of the pop pop, not but a couple of hours prior to the Pop Pop, he said that John Kennedy would never embarrass him again. And that wasn't a threat, that was a promise. End quote. And it's like, well, wait a minute, when did this take place? Was this a party the night before at some oil Baron's house with all these big wigs and movers and shakers? And LBJ wasn't expected to be there, but then he comes in, and if so, when did that happen? I mean, was this at like, two or three o'clock in the morning? I mean, I guess it might be possible. I mean, if it was in the we small hours of November 22 if he had been with JFK that evening and then they flew back and he went to this party in the we small hours, I guess, I guess that could have happened. I'm just telling you. I find it weird. I find it suspicious. It's one of those stories that it's sensational and it sounds really incriminating, but I don't know how well it actually holds up under scrutiny. That's the thing. May Newman further alleges that after Kennedy's death, the whole mood around the Murchison house was joyous, like champagne and caviar and good times. We're told in the Docu series that, from the beginning, Hoover has basically complete control over the cover up and Lee Harvey Oswald is immediately pointed to as the lone nut pop Popper, crazy dude. Now Madeleine Duncan brown comes back on says that the gossip circuit around Dallas was that LBJ had to have been involved. So when they have another one of their trysts, she asks him, were you involved? She says that he has a temper fit. He starts hitting the wall, and he says that he was not involved, but that the fat cats of Texas and the intelligence agencies were involved. She says that she does not believe that Lyndon actually made the plans, just that he had key people around him that he could call on and they could be the ones to make the plans. Charles Crenshaw, who's one of the doctors at Parkland who attended to Lee Harvey Oswald, claims that LBJ called him and said, like, how is the how is Oswald doing? Well, he's lost a lot of blood, but he's holding his own. And LBJ allegedly asks if another man in the room would be willing to take the deathbed confession of Oswald. And so Crenshaw says, Yes, sir, I'll pass the message on. And then the phone disconnects. Crenshaw had released a book of his own, and he gets lambasted by people who claim that No, LBJ never made such a phone call. I think this is false. In this Docu series, they interview a woman named Phyllis Bartlett, who was a switchboard operator at Parkland at the time, and she corroborates the story that yes, LBJ did call there they interview a man named Walt Brown who points out that LBJ, because the murder happened in Texas, he's in a position, not only as the President of the United States, but having so many cronies in Texas, he's in a position to control the narrative a lot better than he would have been say if it had happened in some other state. We're told also that there was an unidentified fingerprint on the sixth floor of the Texas School Book Depository, a fingerprint expert named Nathan Darby, who we're told in this documentary had experience with law enforcement as well as the US military. He's given this fingerprint that was not declassified, I think, until 1998 along with another card that had belonged to Malcolm. Well, it didn't belong to Malcolm Wallace. It was a fingerprint card of Malcolm Wallace's fingerprints. But he's not told any of the circumstances. They just say, like, does the fingerprint match? Based on your expertise? And he gets a 34 point match that yes, in his professional considered opinion, this fingerprint belongs to Malcolm Wallace. So naturally, it's like, Well, why would he have been in the sniper's nest at the Texas School Book Depository, if it really was Oswald acting alone, why would Malcolm Wallace have even been there, even if it wasn't Oswald acting alone, why would somebody with such a close affiliation to LBJ have been up there in January of 1971 Malcolm Wallace died when his car ran off the road in Texas. Apparently, the highway was not icy or wet, but he has an accident for some reason, and lost control of the car and died later in 1971 Clifton Carter also dies, allegedly. About two days before Clifton Carter dies, he tells Billy Saul Estes that he's in fear for his life. I guess the two of them are like comparing notes about all the different nefarious things they've been involved in, filling in some gaps for one another. And then two days later, Cliff and Carter is dead. According to bar McClellan, Edward Clark felt short changed, so after LBJ is kind of looked upon unfavorably for everything that happened with Vietnam, and he decides that he's not going to run again. According to bar McClellan, Edward Clark feels like he's been short changed because Allegedly, he was going to get a million dollars a year spread out over eight years, and he only wound up with four. So he goes to Clint Murchison to complain like I had an important role in all of this, and I don't feel like I've gotten my due. According to bar McClellan, they strike some kind of a deal over an oil well somewhere in Texas that helps Clark to get an additional $2 million so Barb McClellan claims that altogether for Edward Clark's role in the murder of JFK, he realizes $6 million bar McClellan claims that he believes somewhere legal records exist to fill in even more gaps about. Planning and the actual execution of that plan. He also tells the story of like, LBJ going into a depression and a psychiatrist being summoned, and supposedly that psychiatrist was paid a million dollars to keep his mouth shut and to make sure that LBJ didn't spill the beans on anything that he shouldn't. As I mentioned at the onset of this, this episode was considered to be so controversial, so incendiary, that the History Channel made a rebuttal episode to this with the mainstream historians. And I think this episode and that subsequent controversy about it is part of what detractors used to pull down the entire series. I feel like looking at it retrospectively as a whole. As I have said before, it's like the first few episodes, where they're mostly talking to witnesses and they're talking to people who are actually there that day. Just tell us your eyewitness testimony. What did you see? What did you hear? There's a line of demarcation between those early episodes and then where we start to get more into the the theoretical or people that are coming forward that there's no way for us to really substantiate what they're telling us. I mean, was Judith, very Baker, really knocking boots with Lee Harvey Oswald and involved in all of this secret, clandestine cancer research, I don't know. I have no idea if that's true. The same thing with Madeline Duncan Brown. I mean, was she really in some long term sex affair with LBJ, and then the child she had would actually belong to LBJ? I mean, is that true? I don't know. I have no idea. I feel like Oliver Stone's film. JFK takes so much heat, it takes so much criticism. But then you have other documentaries, or other, well, it's not a documentary, it's a Hollywood film, but you have documentary films, and then you have Docu series such as these that are almost more unscathed, I guess, just because they haven't entered into the popular Zeitgeist The way that JFK, as the film did. I feel like in so many ways, a lot of these documentaries, Docu series, whether it's something that a person is made that's fairly high budget, or whether it's something that somebody made in their basement with very primitive equipment, it seems like you get truth commingled with things that are just so weird. They really beggar belief. I'm suspicious as to why that last episode kicked off such a firestorm? It's like, well, why wouldn't the episode with Judith very Baker talking about bio weapons? Why in the hell didn't that kick off the Firestorm? Why was it like, well, the minute that you start talking about LBJ, we're going to have a riot about this. I find that whole thing weird. I think I said at the very beginning of this, for me, it was like watching a JFK related soap opera, because just when you think the stories wouldn't get any weirder, they always did. Have the weird story about the mortician. We have the stories about was it actually Oswald's body in the coffin we've got now all this information about Bobby Baker and Billy Sol Estes, the man that got murdered. He Well, he was supposedly committed suicide, but he was shot five times. Now we're being told about alleged meetings at Clint murchison's house and an atmosphere of celebration after Kennedy died. It just gets weirder and weirder. Watch this Docu series for yourself. If you haven't already, draw your own conclusions. The most that I will say about it is I think it's important to take anything like this with a massive grain of salt and then do your own research. Read books, figure out for yourself if these things make any sense or they don't. I think it's so important not to take anything 100% at face value, because there's so much misinformation and disinformation and then flat out confusion on top of that, I think you do have fame seekers. You have people that think if they get into this line of research, they're going to make a quick buck or make a name for themselves. So it pays to be skeptical. Stay a little bit crazy, and I will see you in the next episode. 

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