Special Guest Episode: Dr. Greg Poulgrain, Author of "JFK vs. Allen Dulles: Battleground Indonesia"

🎉 Special Guest Episode! It was my pleasure to sit down recently with Dr. Greg Poulgrain, the author of JFK vs. Allen Dulles: Battleground Indonesia. Most Americans have no awareness of the significance of Indonesia in the untimely deaths of both John F. Kennedy and UN Secretary-General Dag Hammarskjöld. The fingerprints not only of intelligence, but of Allen Dulles specifically, are simply in too many places to be a mere coincidence. 

Topics:

➡️ JFK kept J. Edgar Hoover and Allen Dulles in place when he began his administration. Why?
➡️ After Dag Hammarskjöld's death, Harry Truman commented to the media that Dag was about to get something done when "they killed him."
➡️JFK and Hammarskjöld had talks towards Western New Guinea being governed by its indigenous peoples. Hammarskjöld was planning to announce this in November of 1961 but was killed in a mysterious plane crash in September.
➡️ "It's possible they planted a small explosive device..."
➡️ "We've got to get rid of Hammarskjöld. He's a nuisance."
➡️ West Papua was (and is) absolutely full of natural resources: gold, copper, gas, oil. It was said that the "smell of ore pervaded the entire countryside." Dulles knew this but wanted to be sure JFK never found out.
➡️ George de Mohrenschildt is known as a buddy of Lee Harvey Oswald and an associate of Poppy Bush, but he was also an associate of Allen Dulles.
➡️ Did JFK and Dag Hammarskjöld unknowingly sign their death warrants by getting involved in Indonesia? 

Links:

https://www.amazon.com/JFK-vs-Allen-Dulles-Battleground/dp/1510744797

Need more? You can visit the website at: https://consaracytheories.com/ or my own site at: https://saracausey.com/. Don't forget to check out the blog at: https://consaracytheories.com/blog. 

Transcript

Transcription by Otter.ai.  Please forgive any typos!

Welcome to con-sara-cy theories. Are you ready to ask questions you shouldn't and find information you're not supposed to know? Well, you're in the right place. Here is your host. Sara Causey.

Sara: Hello, hello, and thanks for tuning in. Tonight. I have a very special guest episode, and my very special guest is Dr Greg Poulgrain, the author of JFK vs Allen Dulles Battleground Indonesia, which is a fascinating book that I don't think American audiences are aware of, not as much as they should be, and I am so excited to get into this topic tonight with him. Greg, if you're not familiar with him, he has taught Indonesian history and politics since the 1990s and he's led a pretty colorful life. He was the last person into Jakarta and the first person into Havana, which includes a pretty colorful Hemingway and rum story that, frankly, I'm a little bit jealous of. So first things first, Dr Greg, thank you so much for being here with me tonight.

Greg: Thank you, Sara. Thank you very much.

S: Excellent. So chapter one of your book sets the stage very well, JFK keeps Allen Dulles on as DCI of the CIA you talk about the political reasons behind this decision. For example, maybe Kennedy felt some sense of owing Allen Dulles. So tell us more about this dynamic. And when you believe the sense of friendliness between those two went sour.

G: Well, Alan Dulles and Hoover were the first two names announced by JFK when he was forming his new administration. Why were these two included? After all, friends of JFK had said Alice and Hoover should be the first to you cross off the list. You know, don't invite them in. I think bipartisanship and continuity of government was a definite theme of the new president of Kennedy, but the negative potential of these two was well known already. You know, some people said Hoover must have had dirt on Kennedy rumors of philandering. But maybe, I think perhaps the inclusion of Hoover was more to take the spotlight off of Dulles, otherwise his sole inclusion might have sparked some further investigation. In reality, rather than JFK picking Alan Dulles, it was Dulles, the Republican who'd picked Kennedy, the Democrat over the Republican presidential candidate Richard Nixon, he'd spent previous years sussing out JFK. Yeah. Dulles had known JFK and his wife, Jacqueline, quite well, as well as Kennedy senior for many years in the mid 50s, when JFK wrote profiles of courage, early 50s, and was sick in bed and dullies, sometimes sometimes with his elder brother, John Foster Dulles, Secretary of State at the time, they used to visit. And they talk about foreign policy. And Kennedy was quite he always thought foreign policy was his sharpest point, you know. And they talk about things, and at one stage, to give an idea of how sick Kennedy was, he was actually given the last rights, if you probably know that already, yeah, which basically means he was on the point of dying. So he was quite sick, but Alan used to come along to visit him. Dulles was getting to know jfk's political viewpoints. He he later admitted he was assessing Kennedy from the viewpoint of an intelligence agent. He actually said it. In fact, he was praising him as possible presidential candidate because dullies wanted someone with Kennedy's outlook in order anti colonial outlook, in order to achieve a ploy that dullies was preparing to do with Indonesia, New Guinea and Southeast Asia in the 1960 election television debates, which were the first time TV debates were held. JFK faced Richard Nixon. So JFK speechwriter Sorensen later said that, because so many million viewers watched these debates, that the victory over Nixon gave JFK the votes that won him the election, just very narrow margin of votes you're probably aware of very, very narrow, right? Because, because, because JFK came out ahead of Nixon, I think that was they attributed that to the victory in the election, apart from Kennedy's charisma and Nixon's five o'clock shadow, Kennedy had a decided advantage when they debated the issue of Cuba, because Alan Dulles had secretly briefed Kennedy. On Cuba Nixon as vice president of under Eisenhower, knew more about what they were talking about, but by law, he was unable to talk about it because he was restricted in the debate. Nixon was furious with Dallas and wrote a book later explaining how he'd been cheated of the presidency. It's just extraordinary that Dulles should help a Democrat, not a Republican, but he did because he wanted that anti colonial element. You know, Dulles was working to a strategy. He wanted JFK as president because Kennedy's anti colonial outlook was exactly what was needed in Delhi's Indonesia strategy. On the desk of Kennedy's first day of the 30/35 president. Guys placed two crises on the desk. One was Cuba and the other was Indonesia. I mean, welcome to the presidency. Yeah, it might seem amazing, but even today, most Americans, as we know, are hard pressed to explain where on earth Indonesia was or is and how big it is, you know. So I should throw in a few words about Indonesia being the world's longest archipelago, joining Australia to mainland Southeast Asia, 3365 miles is about 1/7 of the circumference of the of the earth. It's huge, far wider than American USA is, you know, its population is the largest Muslim nation in the world. Is the world's fourth largest, about 300 million. So it's really a big a big place. But even more importantly, the colonial days when it was known as the Netherlands, East Indies, it was rich, or richer than India in terms of profit for the mother country. As I, as I mentioned, I'd go out and look, that's why du, the genius of regime change in the mid 1950s had to plan to oust the first president of Indonesia, sukana, and replace him with a more compliant type. So after that, there were more than half a dozen failed CIA assassination attempts on sukana, and at one point I read even the Dulles just openly, blithely told Kennedy in 1961 when Dulles was Director of Central Intelligence, that is, that he was working on ousting socano To get a more compliant replacement. That's that's on record. Wow, he didn't say who he had in mind as the replacement, but it gives you a fair idea of how his mind was working. We'll get this guy out and put somebody in, you know, wow. But before this happened, Dulles actually helped sucano, secretly helped him to oust the Dutch from Netherlands, New Guinea. Two former Indonesian foreign ministers told me that money was coming under the table from either Rockefeller or CIA sources to help the Indonesian army to oust the Dutch colonial government from Netherlands. New Guinea. So first he got Sukarno to do that heavy lifting kick out the Dutch and then he Dallas kicked out. Socano, basically, well, he helped. He was out. He was out of office then, but he was still quite powerful. 61 you know, Kennedy kicked him out, but he's still 62 6360 he was still operating. He was at coggy bottom, there in Washington, still in the old office, where he'd been for a long time. So Kennedy sided with socano in the anti colonial campaign that reached a high point, 6263 6162 just when JFK was inaugurated in 1961 it was reaching a high point. Nixon would never have sided with Sukarno, but Kennedy did dullies wanted Indonesia to take control of Netherlands, New Guinea. He wanted the Dutch out, and then he was intending to oust socano. Why Dulles? Well, dullies was the lawyer who formed the Rockefeller company, which found gold in Netherlands, New Guinea 1936 the world's we now know it's the world's largest gold mine, and it's been operating in New Guinea since 1972 just below the snow line, thanks to Alan Dallas. It's basically a Rockefeller. Interests are considerable in this mine. It's, it's Rockefeller. It's Freeport Indonesia, but it's part of McMorran enterprises, yeah, McMorran as well. So it's, but Freeport Indonesia is how I usually refer to the mine. It's, it's based in Japan. Matter so Netherlands, New Guinea was made part of Indonesia in 6263 and then came regime change in 65-66 and I should say that the last year, that's 2023 the gold output from this mine was 50 tons. Wow. Fair wack of girl, but we'll talk more about that later. Perhaps I just wanted to say, say that in 61 Allende has provided a strong reason for Kennedy not to stand by the NATO alliance. Which would have been, which would have been, would have seen the US and Netherlands working together against Indonesian aggression, against the Dutch. I think the trick here is Dali's was so devious. He tricked Moscow in 1958 Alan Dulles tricked Moscow into offering arms to Indonesia to oust the Dutch, and he tricked them. It Indonesia had been asking that, asking the USA for for serious arms to us for many years, but, but on the basis of that NATO Alliance across the Dali's said, no, sorry, we can't. Yeah, he They refused us. Refused. They gave them arms, but nothing serious, like when Moscow gave arms, it was all ships and planes and all for the Navy and for the Air Force, but not the army. Was pro us. You see, whereas the Navy, they're a little bit more leftish, they got the arms, but the army, they're under under the influence of people like Dulles. In 1958 Allen Dulles was behind the massive disruption. It was actually a civil war, a rebellion. When the CIA offered the outer islands Sumatra suluisi, they basically offered them weapons and to rise up against the central government in Jakarta. And Colonel Fletcher Prouty CIA liaison with State Department told me it was the biggest operation, biggest CIA operation other than Vietnam. That's how it's 1958 rebellion, which not many people in the States know about. You know, it's really been kept quiet, but you think if it's that big, you'd know about it, because, yeah, but anyway, it was a, it was a piece of trickery, really, on the part of delis, who pretended to help the rebels and then actually pull them back. Pull back the help. Admiral Ali Burke, who was on the Joint Chiefs of Staff and a close friend of Dallas, even arranged for ships from the Seventh Fleet to assist Dali's plans in this 1958 rebellion. So it was a big operation, but Alan Dulles did not want to break up Indonesia into separate parts. He wanted, the entire archipelago, and his so called support for the Rebels to secede from Java was just just a ruse. The former head of the Indonesian Army, General Nasution, who defeated the outer islands rebellion in 58 made this perfectly clear to me, between the outgoing and incoming us ambassadors to Jakarta in 1958 between Alison who left and Jones who came in, there was a brief period when the US Embassy was under the control of person called Sterling Cottrell, who was a close friend of Alan Dallas and sute on told me about the Sterling Cottrell made four phone calls to him, desperate phone calls telling him, go up to Sumatra, quick. Send up a plane. Send up some observation that some four engine US planes are very busy up there. They're dropping, you know, they're dropping weapons, basically. But he didn't say that. He just said, Get up there some very quickly and see what's happening. You know. So after the fourth phone call, Nasution sent up plane, and then he dropped paratroopers and he picked up all this massive weapons drop for the rebels from the CIA had sent it over from the Philippines, but because Sterling Cottrell rang Nasution. He it the central government that has picked up all the weapons. And that was, that was really the end of the rebellion, to tell you the truth, it went on for several years because Dali's dullies was what he called it, drip feeding. He used that term to Kennedy said, I, I I was drip feeding rebellion for a few years, you know, just giving it a little bit, little bit little bit, you know, just to keep it running. But most of the weapons had already been captured by nasuda on, you know, was fun. Told me about this. He displayed a sort of a sense of humor, which you're not quite used to. The in the Chief of Staff of the Army, you know, because it was in a self mocking way. He looked at me on a special way. He said, Oh, Allah. He's a devout Muslim, you know, from Batak, from Sumatra. He said, Oh, Allah was very kind to me that day, when it was a phone call from Sterling Cottrell. You know, he's really just joking, but to say that Allah was very kind to me, Wow, that's really been quite funny, I think, for the and self mocking, in a way, he was had an interesting sense of humor. You know, he once told me his grandfather was a cannibal, you know, I saw him for about 13 years. Would you like seven visits or so. He used to say, when you're coming from the airport, come straight to my house, and we'll continue the discussion. This is a year between visits or something. So that's how he got to know things like that, you know, because it really he told me some amazing things, even about anyway, 1965 when the generals were killed, he was nearly, very nearly one of them, but he wasn't. But I'll speak about that later if you want to. Anyway, the information from Cottrell meant that Nasution had defeated the rebellion in one fell swoop, basically. But it went on for several years, as I said, you know, in fact, the army. It may put the army in such a position of power at that time, 1958 they never really changed. It's been like that. I mean, we think of 1965 is when the army sees power. But really in 58 the army was already in a very strong position. After the after, because of what Dalis was doing, he made them center of political power in Jakarta, and he wanted a Central Army Command, which is the it wasn't like that before the rebellion. There wasn't a Central Army Command, you know. But Dali's made the Central Army Command because he wanted that to use it to kick out the Dutch from New Guinea, you know, and he also wanted it to control the rise of the PKI, the Indonesian Communist Party. They were getting more and more members, mainly rice farmers, you know, because the rice farmers had no land to grow anything on, and they they joined PKI. They joined or some affiliate group because land reform was on the on the agenda. You know, that's, that's why the PKR was growing. But it's interesting. I should mention the British assessment of the PKI was, it was, wasn't even properly communist. It was, it was Javanese, radical nationalist, they called it. But I'm going you wouldn't see that anywhere in all the books and 60s were about the rising power of the PKI, you know, on how the godless and all the rest of it. But the head of the PKI ate it said, Oh no, no, we're not ready for that yet. We're just simple Javanese, you know. So we'll, we'll still believe in God. You just he bent all the rules, all the communist dogma, you know, he said, Oh, but basically, it was a Land Reform Party, and that's what they got eliminated anyway, absolutely annihilated. In 1965 more than a million got killed. Anyway, as I said before, Dulles bricked Moscow in 1958 into offering arms to Indonesia to ask the Dutch, because Moscow got the wrong perception of this big CIA operation, covert operation, which wasn't really covert at all, because they all wanted Moscow to find out see well Dallas did, so they got the wrong impression, so they offered weapons. But there was another interesting aspect, because when these when the weapons deal was signed with Moscow, with Indonesia, the Indonesian ambassador in Moscow in 1960 when the deal was made, was Adam Malik, and he was a CIA asset. So he's working, he's working with Dulles as the Indonesian ambassador in Moscow. When this, when this arms, Moscow arms deal was made, you see, because the arms, the arms didn't really affect things too much, because even though it was 400 million, which was a lot of the time, and it was planes and it was ships, but it didn't influence the army. Was a pro US Army, so even though he made the need when Kennedy came in in 6061, see, and he was suddenly confronted by this Moscow arms deal, and they were going to support Indonesia to kick out the Dutch. And it was a crisis, on his hand, a Cold War crisis, you know, but it was he had to, he had to do what he did, that is he had to give sucano. He had to kick out the Dutch and give sucano West, New Guinea. And then his plan was to follow up. With massive USAID, and win Indonesia back on side, and by that means come out triumphant. And he probably would have, it, probably would have, but it was much slower. Would have been a much slower process. Dullies. On the other hand, wanted to basically eliminate the PKI, and in doing that, he wanted to split Moscow and Beijing, you know, was that pKa was the next third biggest Communist Party in the world. You know, 20 million supporters they had, as I said, rice farmers, mainly impoverished rice farmers. But because it was so popular both China, Beijing and Moscow were arguing with each other over who's going to get control of this next biggest Communist Party in the world, Indonesia. So they're arguing with each other as well. And when, when the pika was totally eliminated, killed, decimated, Moscow and Beijing started fighting, yeah, started tank battles. They blamed each other for that mistake, you know, but actually, it was the trickery of Delhi's that did it. So he's really a genius of an intelligence, if you want to praise, give praise where praises do but it just the way that he did it. It's just kill, kill, kill. That's he had no no crimes about killing anybody in the way. And I suppose that's what we should talk about in way. I was able to interview Malik anyway, because he just retired as vice president that year, and Nishijima arranged it, which, yeah, which was, I was lucky to be able to get an interview with him because of them. How would I? How would I say that Kennedy? So Kennedy and and hired J J Edgar Hoover, and he brought Alan Dulles into the administration way back when he was they were the very first two names he mentioned when he outlined who was going to be in his staff, which was such a shock, and it was a huge mistake, which he admitted later on, yes, and well, he fired Dali's after, after the Bay of Pigs are based on, the most people think, based on the Bay of Pigs, I think. But as you probably know, when dullies was kicked out, forced to resign. It was shortly after, also the death of hammer. Yes, and there's a few mysterious quotations there. New York Times quoted, who was Truman? Wasn't it? Truman the assassination said, mark my words. They they were killed. They killed him just as he was about to achieve something, you know, which is such a shame. But people he sure why he never explained that more, you know, because it's been a mystery ever since. But people who know what Kennedy was, he used to go into the White House and discuss he and Mrs Truman used to stay overnight, you know. And they used to talk about foreign policy and everything. And, of course, the big issue at the time was, the was the the Russian arms deal with Indonesia, you know, and how they're going to get out of it. What's the problem? And, you know, is America going to be fighting Moscow over, over this remote territory in New Guinea, you know, what was going to happen so? And what happened was Kennedy requested, quietly, requested Doug hammerscholt, and he met him in the april 1961 in the Astoria towers hotel, and they discussed the problem. And I think what came of it was that Doug hammerscholt was going to intervene in the in the sovereignty dispute between the Dutch and the Indonesians, the sovereignty dispute over West New Guinea and by that means, relieve Kennedy of finding a solution to the problem of the problem caused by Moscow arms deal. It wasn't going to be a Cold War crisis. He was trying to avert the sovereignty dispute turning into a Cold War crisis, because to get those weapons from Moscow to Indonesia takes several years, you know, deliver ships and things like that. So but the crisis was looming, and for Doug hammershot to act quickly, which he, which he did in 1961 he he was planning to intervene in November, in. The when the UN General Assembly was meeting, he was he was going to announce that he was bringing an end to the to the sovereignty dispute between the Dutch and the Indonesians, and he was going to grant independence to the Papuan people in West west New Guinea. That is the person who told me this was George Ivan Smith, who was the top man working under Doug hammerschel, actually, yeah. Hammer was killed in a plane crash in the Congo in September 17, 18th, just after midnight in the Congo in 1961 and George Irvin Smith would have been on that plane with him, but he was in Arizona at the time, and he couldn't get back to depart. So Hamish went by himself, and he he arrived in the Congo, and the plane that was involved in the crash arrived separately, and that basically both came to Leopoldville, Kinshasa, I think Kinshasa, kinsasha, in there, anyway, in those days, Leopoldville. So when this DC six arrived in Leopoldville, it had been, it had been harassed by a fuga magistra fight, a small fighter plane. Hammer wasn't on the plane, but it was coming to Leopoldville, so when it arrived there, they wanted to check it, because it would have been harassed. And by coincidence, there was a CIA plane available already in Leopoldville. I think persons there offered their expertise to check the plane or any damage that may have been sustained in a by the by this other plane that early morning firing on it, and they said they found one bullet hole in the in the but I'm not sure they said one bullet holes. Okay, there was a reason to check the plane to make sure it's still serviceable, but four technicians were involved in checking the plane. And the amazing thing was, they said there was no security at the time, so these four technicians were there for a few hours with nobody looking on, seeing what they were doing or anything. So that that sort of supports the idea that these four technicians, may one or four may have come from the CIA plan. You know, yes, if you come from the CIA there's no, no need to provide security, you see, so and what happened, I think, in the in the few hours that these technicians had access to the plane, well, access to the outside of the plane. I think somebody, one of them, or more than one, fiddled with the altimeters, because that was a crucial element in the crash that occurred later that night. And also, I think there's a possibility that they planted a small explosive device. This was checked out in all the, all the examinations, all the in the 1960s and the half a dozen, I suppose, investigations were looking into the cause of the crash and later, in later years. But the main one in 6162 was they, they were sure it must have been caused by a bomb, that they couldn't find any evidence of a bomb, any any loose bits of metal, a timing device bomb, but they're looking for the wrong sort of bomb. See there was not a timing device bomb, but there was a bomb but, and the other thing was that as the plane was coming into land, there was was also being harassed by another plane at the time. But it people have thought that the other plane may have caused the crash, but, but there's no evidence on the on the fuselage, on the wreckage you know, on the from the forensic evidence, there's no evidence that the other plane, you know, shot endless bullets and caused it to crash. No so for years and years, pilot error was usually the attributed is the cause of the crash. They did not take into consideration, even though they thought it must have been a bomb, you know, they couldn't find any evidence. So they said, well, it must have been pilot error, you know. So the type of bomb I'm suggesting that could have been used that no one seems to have considered before was a handful of c4 placed on the junction in the undercarriage where the wing flaps, where the control from the cockpit goes down to both wing flaps. There's, there's a junction box there that if you put a handful of c4 with a detonator, a small, small wire to a receiver on the wheels, on the wheel struts. So when the wheel struts are lowered. The receiver has a direct line of communication eight miles to another CIA plane waiting on the indoor air strip, which was where Hamish was intending to go. He was going to mediate the crisis at the time, but he had to go to place called indola, in the OLA. It's in Rhodesia, just over the border, outside of the Congo. So, so you get a small explosion severing the cables for the control of the wing flaps and your some reports said the plane is 1700 feet lower than it should have been the altimeters have a misread, had a misreading at the time. Well, not a misreading, a deliberate wrong reading. And the person who wrote the book about that about 2012 I think it was, was Susan Williams, she really stirred things up with the accusation that it was probably assassination, not pilot error. You know, there's people working, yeah. So since then, we've had a few a committee met, and they decided, yes, there's enough evidence to look again at this tragedy and to see look more closely at whether who could have caused the accident and the plane to crash. So one report came out about the end of 22,022 and then another, another investigation was immediately started last year, 23 and it should be coming out shortly. And that's the eminent person in control of in charge of that report, is Judge otman, who's the Chief Justice from Tanzania. So it's I'll be interested to see what he says as the cause of the crash. But this idea of the bomb was would never have been thought of unless at the time of the crash there were 16 people, well, 15 plus Dag hammshole, but one survived. Dad, come on shoals security officer, an American he survived. He had burns to 50 or percent or so of his body taken to hospital and died when people say he shouldn't have died five days later, you know, but his American wife came over and sitting by the bedside, things like that. So they thought he'd survive, but somehow he died. What happened? Bit of a mystery, but he did say there was an explosion and witnesses, Africans, you know, in the in the around the countryside, who were ignored in the early investigations. They They didn't take any evidence at all from local Africans. Some of them have subsequently said there was a like a flash, and that would support the idea of a bomb. Some people say, Well, that was when the plane who was attacking the DC six. It may have caused something to flash, but there's no evidence of that at all. There was a plane attacking, and one pilot thought he must have hit something. But actually, if you think it was a packet of a handful of c4 or the detonator and the radio signal sent from the CIA communications plane, see George Ivan Smith, the Adjutant for hammershot. When I tracked him down, he told me about this plane that was attacking in the last minute, but he also told me about the CIA plane waiting at Nola. Actually, there were $2 and one at Leopold Hill. So there is something to be few too many. But what the one that was operating it in dollar at midnight, was state of the art communications plane, you know, and it all the engines were going, that is to say it was stationary, but that it was operating at full speed at midnight, just when the plane is about to land. Now, you think people say, What on earth was it doing? You know? Why was it so busy at midnight? You know? But it never seems to have been previously brought in to the investigation to say perhaps they were involved. And I would think it's highly likely that not only that, they sent the signal, but they'd also been monitoring radio signals and and doing other things. They were in the right place at the right time, with the right capacity, the right power, that is the right well, the wrong political inclination. They didn't they wanted to. The interesting thing was that 19. 98 when Bishop kutu in the in the South African Truth and Reconciliation Commission was involved in the investigation, they somehow going. Had a warehouse full of documented documents in there, and they lifted out this brown envelope, and in it were eight, eight letters relating On another matter, was the name, the title, another matter. But they were sort of stuffed in this envelope as evidence or something. And the in the eight letters referred to that the attempted assassination of Doug hammersholed in 1961 and in those letters, they were quoting Dulles. Alan Dulles as saying, We've got to get rid of, got to get rid of Doug. How much older he's a nuisance. But most people, same problem, again mentioned. Do not go outside the square here. They all think the problem was in the Congo and was killed because of the Congo, you know. But I say no, Dulles used the Congo in that is the scene of the of the killing. But his motive had to do with some place called Indonesia around the other side of the world, you know. And Dulles had no real option, because Hammarskjöldwas about to go to the United Nations to declare independence for the Papuan people, and that would have completely messed up years of planning of Dalits for regime change, for getting the goals. You know, it would have just been it's something didn't want to happen. So he had to get rid of Dag Hammarskjöld. And even though he seemed to be in agreement with the people, the mercenaries, Belgian, French, British, whatever, operating in his breakaway province of Katanga, breaking away from the Congo, you know, even though they seem to be involved with that in supporting them, his real motive, this is devious Dulles at work. You see this? His real motive was Indonesia. Well, the other side of the world, Indonesia, Southeast Asia, you know, not even Vietnam, because that film that was JFK filming on looking at in, looking at Vietnam as the cause of, of the death of Kennedy. It wasn't when you go Indonesia, when you look at no Indonesia, probably, you know, as I've been since, well, too long, too long. There too many years. But Indonesia was so big, and it's like four times the size of other countries in Southeast Asia. And Kennedy wanted to settle Indonesia first, before we worried about Vietnam, before Blau, before Cambodia, whatever, he must get Indonesia on side. You know. So Indonesia was the big was the giant in southeast still is the giant in Southeast Asia. And there's no point in he wanted to do that, then he was going to worry about Vietnam. So that's why he was focused on that's why Kennedy was focused on Indonesia. It is so huge. Just a very rich potential, and at the time, rich in minerals and political possibilities, hammered, I think

 you didn't know, as like Kennedy acting in the way they were the new boys on the block. You know, Dali's had been working on matters relating to Indonesia since 1920 something, you know, 28 he was, he was an illegal struggle there, way back in the late 20s, against the the big oil mogul, the Dutch oil mogul of Indonesia, you know, so he was, he'd been involved there for a long, long time he would been trying to get, he'd been trying to get oil concessions for Rockefeller since the First World War. You know? I mean, that's when Dulles started in intelligence in the First World War. He's really an extraordinary individual. It's just tragic that he sort of, he was the, yeah, the evil genius, yes. 

S: Well, and I think you're, you're terming of him devious Dulles. I think I might steal that and start using it, because I think that's a pretty good way of putting it.

G:  I've got the impression that people in America seem to think that John Foster Dulles and Alan were had a relationship a bit like Kennedy and his brother, you know, Attorney General, but it was nothing like that at all. You can see from the records that Alan was not being honest with his own brother, even though they worked together. Other one was Secretary of State, the other Director of Central Intelligence. You can see them in particularly in the 1958 period I mentioned with that rebellion, Alan is devious. He's lying to his brother. And that's you can if you read the records, you can see where, where that happens so and I would say he's really working on his own. In many respects, he had help from Kissinger. Was working together with Dallas since, since World War Two, Berlin, 1945, 46 they were very close. And also the US ambassador, Marshall Green, who came into arrived in Jakarta in 65 and left in 69 mean he was also very close and with Kissinger, Dulles and green, the three of them so. But as we know, Alan Dulles was edged out of power in the end of November, I think it was 61 but still kept in position of power in the next few years. But then that's when Kissinger and Marshall green really took over and carried on to work. And it's interesting that New Guinea was finally under Indonesian power. I suppose you could say officially, in 1969 there was what they called an act of free choice when the UN was supposedly involved, but it didn't do much. The Papuans were supposed to vote whether or not they wanted to stay with Indonesia the New York agreement in 6062 63 made allowance for this, so called active free choice at the end of the end of the 60s, 69 so the Papuans were given a vote to say yes or no whether they wanted to stay part of Indonesia. But when that time came, Marshall Green was the US ambassador in Jakarta and Kissinger was in power, basically, security, national security. And when this active, so called active free choice occurred, was 1023 I think, Papuans, out of a million, some were given the opportunity to put the hand in the air to indicate yes, it was, I think, 0.01% of the population participated in the so called act of free choice, you know? And that's and it was never approved by the United Nations. They said it took notice of the result. And in official terminology, take notice of means a yes or a no, but we'll let it pass for the moment. But officially, it can be queried at some time in the future, but from that point, from that point in time, Indonesia has claimed it was officially given to Indonesia, and that's the end of it, and they took over, and it's still like that. Now, last August, I gave a talk in Jakarta, and it's amazing how sensitive the whole issue of Papua is, and it's, I mean, so much, so much gets hidden away from the people in Jakarta. It's not just not good in the television or the newspapers, and they don't really know what's happening there, but it's a tragedy what's happening in Papua, because so many people been killed. And if you go back in history, you know, there's such involvement with Hammarskjöld with Kennedy Sukarno, it's and it's got the it's so rich. They were originally, they were denied independent. The pipelines were denied independence on the ground in the 50s, on the grounds that the place was bereft of natural resources.

S: Right.

G: Hold on, it's got the biggest gold mine in the world, you know. And that's what I when I was talking about nishajima before his boss, maida, he was operating oil, as I said, oil that had been found by Rockefeller in 1941 possibly involving George de Morin shield. Now that oil was pure light oil without any sulfur, it was the richest oil ever found in the world. That's amazing. You could use the oil straight out of the ground into a machine, no refinery needed, and that's why they wanted to keep it quiet. That's why Nishijima and maida wanted to keep it quiet. But anyway, so this part, it just adds to the depths of the tragedy. I think, in New Guinea, it certainly wasn't bereft of natural resources. It was stinking rich. Know, biggest gold mine in the world, you know, and 50 tons of gold a year, which is official. I'm, as I explained in Jakarta and explained in a few universities around Indonesia, is probably an underestimation. If you go into if you go into it in some detail, because I interviewed the person who found the gold, Jean Jacques Dozier, discover the gold in 1936 and he told me how rich it was, 15 grams per ton. 15 grams. That's twice as rich as the richest Garmin ever found in the world at that time, which was with waters around in South Africa. So 15 grams per ton, everybody couldn't they just couldn't believe it, you know. So and Hitler and the Japanese both wanted to get into west New Guinea before, before World War Two, so they hushed up this rich gold deposit because they didn't want, they didn't want to have to fight off Hitler or the Japanese. So this is before the war. So they disguised this 15 grams per ton as one gram per ton. They mixed up the GGR whatever in English, Dutch. GGR in Dutch is, is grams, I think. But in English, and it was published in English, it's one one grain. So that's 11 5 15 grains is the same as one gram per ton. So throughout the 50s, during the dispute, this gold deposit wasn't really part of the dispute, because was hardly worth worrying about. It was only one gram, a ton, you know, and in such a remote area, too difficult to mine, you know. So it didn't really figure. But of course, it wasn't one gram. It was 15 grams. And when I, when I spoke with Jean Jacques de in his house, he confirmed it. He read it out from his original report. 15 grams, yes, yes. He said, Yeah. And he said, Freeport checked it out as well before, while the Dutch was still there, that is, before they were kicked out in in 62-63 Freeport came along and conducted their own exploration, and he said they confirmed it was 15 grams per ton. And he said it was even more than that. He said even more than 15 grams, that's why it was people just couldn't believe it. There's so much goal there. You know, one Freeport, Freeport director told me there's enough goal there for 200 years of mining. Wow. And if you ever go over there, it's like it's got 7000 troops on the coast and about four or five in the mountains. Where they where they mine, is, you know, it's better defender than fort. Knox.

S: Oh, I bet. I bet. And I wanted to ask you about this, because chapter two of your book is titled gold and the 1936 discovery and concealment. And I'm curious to know, like as you're doing your research, I would love to know when it was that you discovered this information, not only that it existed period, but also that Alan Dulles had discovered this information and willfully covered it up.

G: Well, I said the NN, GPM, Netherlands, New Guinea petroleum, matsubai, it was the Dutch named company. Its headquarters were in Holland. The staff were Dutch, but it was 60% American. And Americans used to visit the headquarters in New Guinea. You know, they wrote, they wrote about it in the diaries. You know, the Dutch were leading in world aerial photography for geological purposes of the time I think his name was, he wrote a diary, and he used to say that, Oh, standard, all people here again, you know, he didn't particularly like them. He was writing it in, you know, they have to be a bit careful. There can be a bit nosy, things like that. You know, they used to, they were there in 1936 they would have passed the information on straight away to Dulles to back into Standard Oil headquarters, basically. So that's how Dali's knew there was gold straightaway. You know, he knew there was gold, and he spent the next decades getting it. He had to get it. Well, of course, he was just unbelievably rich, you know. And I've actually calculated one the amount of gold that came out of China last year. They told. Total output of gold in China compared to the amount of gold from this one big mine. It's now called the glassberg mine. If it's if the gold is calculated at 15 grams per ton, not see officially, it's one gram per ton. But if you calculate gold 15, it may not be 15, it may, you know, gold changes in deposits like that. So any geologist will tell you, you know, it's open to variation, but even 10, you know. But if we calculated at 15 grams, it's twice the amount of gold from China last year. Goal, that's, that's the amount of, that's how big this gold is, this gold deposit, and there's enough there for 200 years. I mean, holy what? That's why they've got so many troops, you know, that's why it's the biggest tax. They pay, more tax than any other company in for Jakarta, and it's, it's just a huge operation. See, they Jakarta has been insisting on gaining majority share. They've got 60% I think now people say, Well, what? There can't be anything wrong with the figures, you know. But Jakarta has nothing at all to do with the mining. You know, they just read the report to get up there. It's another matter. To get up to the mountains where the mine is, is another matter. The key to the solution, I think. But we're going to see some changes, because as a new smelter, which has just started. It just south of Surabaya in Java. There's a place called Gress, and it's just got a new Freeport sulfur started a few weeks ago. In fact, it's like, I forget how many 100 million it cost, but, but it's big operation, so they're going to try to get the gold direct from Papua to come over to be smelted in the refinery there. But it won't make any difference, you know, because the gold going the where the mine is up in the mountains, there's 112 kilometer long pipeline to the point on the coast where it's exported. And what I'm saying is anybody who wants to investigate this has to go to the mine, because the gold is removed before. Most of the gold is removed before it goes down the pipeline. It goes down in a slurry with copper and gold and slurry and the gold that goes down the pipeline, sure, it's one gram a ton, but it's not just Freeport. Does this octet does it in Papua New Guinea next door. They do the same thing. They've got a 12 kilometer pipeline, but they take gold out before it goes down the pipeline, and send the gold back separately to Port Moresby, you know. And it's the same procedure in so many gold mines in Papua, New Guinea. I mean, you can go around and as it's the official amount of gold they're getting from those mines is probably not quite correct with the actual amount they're getting out, you know, because it's just open to corruption in in remote places like that, it's just open to corruption. And Freeport is no different. It's, well, it's on the one of the most remote islands in the world. To get to it. It's extremely difficult, and in one of the most remote locations, you know, but 10,000 feet, just below the snow line, you know, the mountains up there go to 5000 5000 meters in height. They used to have glaciers just near with mine. You know, this is three degrees below the equator. It's one of the one or two places, three places around the world, like that, South America, Africa and New Guinea. So the glaciers are pretty well melted now because of climate change, but there's still snow. You can still see snow, and it's, ah, the place is just amazing. I mean, I met a flying up in a plane there a few years ago. There's a big cliff that drops sheer cliff that drops 10,000 feet straight down. That's twice the height of the Grand Canyon. And the plane, I was in a plane with about 10 or 12 others, you know. And the pilot, I still remember his name, Pinky. He was Indonesian pilot, but he he went the wing, went very close to the side of the cliff. I can tell you he was playing jokes. I was doing, I was afraid, and he succeeded. But I remember looking up and I could just see the cliff going up and disappearing in cloud, and looking down and seeing the cliff disappearing and just down, down, down. It was just frightening. And about a month later, that plane had a crash when it landed. It. It landed up on top that's higher up in the mountain, and I forget the name of the place now anyway, that when they when it was due to take off, they loaded it with too many pigs, and it was overweight, you know. So it took off. It's quite a steep sort of airstrip, so when it took off, it barely got into the air, and it crashed. So even though, with that speed, I think two, two persons were killed, and the rest of them were injured, but they're okay. Pinky got injured for a little while, but not too bad. But when the people came along to see that what happened with the crash, the pigs had run away, you see? Yeah, well, they thought catching the pigs was more important than looking after the two dead. Well, they're dead, you know. So they left them and they chased the pigs. They got their priorities around anyway. So it was just interesting that it was the same plane that crashed, the one that I'd been on a month. But anyway, we've been talking about plane crash. Just takes us back to Dag Hammarskjöld, doesn't it? Yes, but anyway, yeah, New Guinea is a bit like that. It's, it's got amazing anybody, any pilot who flies in New Guinea is has to be among the best pilots in the world. It's just very dangerous place. That's Papua New Guinea, or west New Guinea. The mountains are Petrus, and clouds just sweep in. They're still having even the Indonesian Air Force still has accidents in in West Africa quite regularly. Because you I think I remember one, one plane, transport plane was coming into land with a view of the airstrip, and suddenly clouds just swamp the plane. It's just just unpredictable weather, and it's very dangerous place to fly. 

S: Yeah, well, you had mentioned also about the oil. So it's not just mineral rich in gold, but also mineral rich in terms of or natural resources rich in terms of its oil. And you also touched on George de Mohrenschildt. For those of us in America, I would say the small percentage, frankly, of the American population that has any idea who George de Mohrenschildt actually was. We tend to know him as having as being part of the Dallas White Russian community, and having some kind of weird friendship, wink wink, with Lee Harvey Oswald, and then, maybe to a lesser degree, having some kind of business dynamic with George HW Bush, aka Poppy bush. But you in the book actually draw the connection out between George de Mohrenschildt and Alan Dulles, which is something that I really wasn't familiar with until I read your book. So tell us a little bit about this dynamic between de Mohrenschildtand Allen Dulles.

G: Have you heard of humble oil? Yeah, humble oil set up by the Bush family way back, but it was taken over secretly by Standard Oil, and Humber oil was conducting exploration as a contractor for Standard Oil in New Guinea just before the war, just before the Japanese invasion that War. Now, in 1941 they were conducting exploration and George De Morgan shield. Well, where can we start there? George Morton shield and Alan Dulles met. I mean, I'll come back to that oil, because this job saying George mall and shield ended up there in 41 but if we go jump back to when World War One, just after World World War One, Alan Dulles was in Constantinople as a diplomat, and he was sent to the Baku oil fields, which is fairly close by Caspian sea, black sea, whatever, because Rockefeller had just purchased A large swag of sheer oil, oil interest there from the Nobel brothers, and then the Russian Revolution broke out. So it was a bad time to buy oil in the Baku, because it was all taken over by the Red Army. So Alan was sent over there to negotiate something, some work out some price. This is just when the Russian Revolution is gathering momentum. And Alan met the man in charge of the Baku oil fields, who was the father of young George de Mohrenschildt. He was 12 years old or something. So we actually met him when he was a young kid. So revolution came and everything. And then George, the father in charge of the oilfield, who's basically working that oil field for the Tsar of Russia, was the biggest, or one of the biggest in the world. Then he they escaped. Father and son. Two sons actually went to escape. The mother died. They went to Poland. George joined the cavalry for a year or two. Then. Went to study in Belgium at the University in Belgium, did a master's in in I did a PhD, I think, in the oil distribution in South America. Which, which got him a job when he emigrated to America in 19 just before the war 38 it got him a job with humble oil. Yeah, basically Standard Oil. And Allen Dulles was the lawyer for humble oil. See, so what he was doing in humble oil was working. He was selling oil to the Vichy French. When, when the war started in Europe, they were selling oil to the Vichy French, which the British didn't like, because this oil was going straight to the Nazis. Then they were bombing London. British intervened, and George de Morin shield, at that time, was in a difficult position, because his father had gone to live in Germany, Nazi Germany. So when the British the law, the law case was going to happen, and they figured out if, if George's, if it comes out in that lawsuit, that in the law court that George's father, George was involved in this oil business with French, fishy French intelligence agents and things and people like Dulles and humble oil. But if it comes out that his father is living in Nazi Germany, it looked very bad, you know, so they decided to get rid of George. Just get out so you're not anywhere around here to participate in this, in this law, in the courts, in the Warren Commissioner, he said he went to Louisiana and hid for a while, you know, went right, yeah, there's a red Nick. And I'm saying, Well, maybe he did. He maybe he went down there for three weeks and he learned how to, you know, pull out the this, the drilling operations. He learned how to do it. But blood, he said oil was in his blood. He told that. He said that in the Warren Commission. Anyway, I think he probably did go to Louisiana for a little while, but that was just to find out what to do to be involved in the in the oil operation. You know, I did that myself, actually, for a while in university years. Wow, easily enough with the same company that he did isn't that weird, Austral United geophysical I was with. He was with. I forget whether it was Austral or geophysical now, but it's almost it was partly the same company oil and gas for a while. Anyway. So when George, George was selling this oil. He decided, well, they decided he had to get out of America. And he said he hid Louisiana. But I think he went across, or one would have taken him seven days to fly across the Pacific on the Pacific clipper, and he was working in with humble oil again, in the exploration in West New Guinea and he found the oil kilometers from this deep water port, which was the same oil that maida was operating. That's Nisha Jean was boss, if you remember he was, he was drilling this oil in 1942 43 444. 45 and then the war ended, but then they covered it up and it it wasn't there in the 50s for the Dutch to use well, that they knew it was there, the Americans knew it was there, but it was all hashed up because, well, it was the rich. It would have supported Dutch colonization of New Guinea and they didn't want the Dutch to stay there, so it was all kept quiet. Yeah, so I'm saying George, quite possibly, was part of that oil exploration, because he was given $10,000 reward by humble oil what for? He said he got it from friendly woman. But it seems as though he was given a reward because he found this amazing oil field, and there's a fair bit of other evidence to support that, that he was actually there, and I had a friend look for his name on the passenger list, on the on the clipper in 1941 that used to go across is a quite a luxurious plane. It was, well, the height of luxury in that time to get across, to travel around the world, you know. But would you believe I was told that the page where the passenger list was had been torn out? Which is there? So that, in a way, supports my theory, again, that George was involved. Anyway, George comes back. Just. At the end of the war with this $10,000 that he got. He does that his geology, and he sets up in the 1950s he's working as a geologist consultant, and he's working with with the CIA. He does a few jobs, but he said he didn't get paid in cash. He got paid in other other jobs. You know, they they put him on to other other concessions, or other other jobs in Haiti, for example, you know, so, but he's obviously, he was working, still working with intelligence in the 50s, you know. So after Lee Harvey Oswald had defected and come back with his Russian wife, they were living in Fort Worth? Is it Dallas? Because he stayed in minks Minsk Belarus in Russia? It's apparently that's where George de Morin shield said he came from as well. So on that basis, he was given the job of befriending Lee Harvey Oswald. So he because he wanted to speak with a Russian wife, because she was a bit lonely and things like that. Anyway, he did comment that Lee Harvey Oswald's learnt Russian in two years, which is pretty good, and he's quite good at it, apparently, he said. He called him a hillbilly. He still learned Russian in two years. And he commented that he used to read Russian novels in the, in the, in Russian, you know, which is obviously quite fluent in Russian. So he got to know Lee Harvey Oswald. But the amazing thing I found was that Lee Harvey Oswald had a job, and he'd arranged a job for himself. But then a friend of George de Morin shield, this Ruth Payne lady, she said, No, don't go there. Come here, you know. And she got him a job in the Texas Book repository. I mean, he already had another job, but because he went there was only six weeks, six weeks before the bath, six weeks before the assassination of Kennedy, he was put into this building. Yeah. And the other amazing thing I found was that Alan Dulles came down to give a talk in Dallas. Did you ever read about that?

S: Yeah, it's interesting, because I just want to interject for just a second, because in in Russ Baker's book, family of secrets, he actually talks about how Allen Dulles was on the board for Scholastic, which is a major American textbook company. So there are all of these weird, little nuanced coincidences, wink, wink, as to Allen Dulles involvement, and then also a prominent businessman in Dallas who owned the Texas School Book Depository. So these things are just a little bit too intertwined to be a pure coincidence.

G: Yes. So it's interesting that Alan knew, knew George de Mohrenschildt from 12 years of age, you know. And later on, after, after, George wrote a book, you know, on the Patsy, and he was contacted he was going to participate in the Senate hearings, Wasn't he in the 70s, and he was basically found one morning with a bullet went in, shot him well, they said he shot himself. But neither his wife nor his friends agreed with that, with that diagnosis, and they said, No, he wouldn't have done that so. And it was the very morning when he was going to provide vital evidence for the investigation, which is another strange coincidence, but Willem Oltmans was a person who is a Dutch journalist. He found originally dug up George de Mohrenschildt yard. Well, he located him, I should say, and got him to he offered to give evidence, but then he George went back to America, and then the Dutchman followed him over but he got into trouble there, and someone tried to do in the Dutchman as well. You know, wow. I met him back in Amsterdam. Then he was all bruised and packed, and he was a real mess, because he's a bit of a bit of a playboy, yeah, yeah. But anyway, that's another, another issue, but George, George was very interesting character. Did you read that part in the book where George's half sister? I think? No, no. Sorry, the person that George married his wife, what's her name? Again, I forget her name.

S: Jean or Jeannie, something like that.

G: Yes, that's it. Jean. What's surname? Again, it, but it gets too, too involved. I think you'd have to read the book to sort that out. But it has an Australian connection as well, with a fellow who was the brother of the wife of George, half brother of the wife, or something, yeah, who went up to New Guinea in a canoe. Would you believe back in 50s, we people, he got to call him Tarzan, because he, he was born on the opposite side of, what was it? Black Sea? Was it Caspian Sea? Yes, the Tarzan, Tarzan and the old movies, you know, but he was born on the eastern side of the legacy. And this, this fellow, was born on the opposite side, so, but when he went up to New Guinea, and he's paddling around there and walking around in New Guinea for three months, I spoke with a Dutch, the top Dutch officer, who actually took him under put him under house arrest because he didn't have any visas or anything, and then sent him back to Australia. And this Dutchman said, when he met flamenco, his name was Michael flamenco, and the sister was Jeannie Fomenko in Mary George. Yeah, so Fomenko was he said he was the most fit human being he'd ever seen in his because he paddled this canoe all the way up the coast of Queensland and across very dangerous water. You know, some of the areas up there have got whirlpools where fishing boats just disappear down the whirlpool. So to go across in a canoe, you've got to be picked the right time in the right place and everything. But he did that. And I think he was going up there, because Nene may have mentioned to him that George, her husband, found oil up there in 1941 before the Japanese came by accident, I think. And it's never been announced, never been publicized. So I think this fellow went up in the canoe in 1950s to check it out. And people here, well, one detective in Brisbane actually didn't want this to happen, because he was in contact with international detectives like an intelligence agencies, and this detective grabbed this bit him and Michael Fomenko and put him in a mental asylum and gave him electroconvulsive therapy, or perhaps even, what's the operation on the front here again, lobotomy, yeah, and put him out. And then for the next 50 years, this fellow just ran around in the jungle by himself. That's why they called him Tarzan. Wow. Amazing, really. He I met him briefly before he passed away. Strangely enough, he was 82 or 83 or something, and he wanted, he was in Cairns, and he wanted to visit the family in Sydney. So he started walking there, which is like, 2000 kilometers, you know, wow. And he got down, he done, he did more than half. And he said his knee gave out, and he went into an old people's home just near Brisbane here, and that's where I visited him. So he didn't get to see the city the family, but I did ring up his sister. His eldest sister is Russian, and she wanted me to give messages to brother. So they're also like, she's 90 something, and she's still quite amazing. Well, at the time, haven't spoken to her for a few years, but it's quite extraordinary. Ages and physical abilities these people have, yeah, 80. What was he 80? And he's just decides to walk to Sydney. That's extraordinary. I mean, I, I myself, have got Welsh background, and I had an auntie who was 104 when she decided to to leave, leave this world. But there's nothing wrong with her. She just said, Oh, I don't want another long, hot summer. That's brilliant. She just died that night. You know, that's amazing. No, no disease, no, no ailments. You know, just breathing got slower and slower, and she passed away at night, and she's tired that afternoon. I don't want another long, hot summer. You know, breathing just gets slower and slower and you die, apparently. Yeah, mystery, well, thank goodness it's a mystery still.

S: Yes, well, I would like for the two of us to stay on this side of the veil for the time being. I want to return for a second to Dag Hammarskjöld. I know that you've spoken about him already, but I had not had the familiarity until I read your book in particular about this idea that JFK and Hammarskjöld had been working together, had been in talks with the idea of West New Guinea belonging to its indigenous people. And clearly, this type of thing, this type of behavior towards self determination, is a big no no, as we know, to the colonialist and imperialist powers. And I'm wondering, especially since that would have ruined Dulles's intent for the area, and there's so much focus placed on the backdrop of the Congo and what happened with Lumumba that we tend not to ever go outside of that area when it relates to the death of Dag Hammarskjöld. I'm wondering if this idea that JFK and Hammarskjöld were going to work together and it would have ruined Dulles plans. Do you think I know that we're speculating here, but do you think that could be a sort of way that Hammarskjöld signed his own death warrant without knowing it absolutely?

G: Yeah, he didn't know about the gold at all, unaware of that at all, unaware of regime change was on the agenda, and for Hammarskjöld to get involved in the way he did, it was definitely his signings, his death warrant, but Kennedy had been involved in getting Dag Hammarskjöld do that, you know, to get get USA off the hook with in the Cold War. So when Hammarskjöld was killed in the plane crash, Kennedy had to step in to the breach and took on what originally Hammer was doing. He had to deal with the issue fairly quickly. And he, as I said, he reached an agreement. He got, he got the New York agreement done, which was done by a close family friend of Allan Dulles. Again, I'm afraid that's why it was such an unfair agreement, the New York agreement. But then that could have been well, Kennedy thought it may have ended there, but it didn't. But when Kennedy was hoping to follow up the New York agreement with massive US aid for Indonesia, he ran, ran aground because the US Congress stopped us aid because of Malaysian confrontation. Malaysian confrontation was a bit of a squabble between Malaya, which became Malaysia in 63 September or something. But Malaya, or the Malayan states British, a British colony, and Indonesia, and Indonesia and Malay were started small, well, clashes, military clashes up in Sarawak. But what happened? How that happened is interesting, because it threatened Kennedy's whole plan of operation. He wanted to bring Indonesia on side in the Cold War. And when the US Congress stopped, stopped his aid program, it threatened everything, you know, he wouldn't even he wouldn't have been reelected. So to get reelected, he needed a success, a foreign policy success. He was, he was wanted to make this issue the one. So he and Sukarno started negotiations through Ambassador Jones. How can we? How can we bring this to a stop? You know, we've got to stop Malaysian confrontation, because Jones told Kennedy, Sukarno did not start, did not start Konfrontasi did not start confrontation. That's why he wants to stop it. You know, Foreign Minister subandria started help to start confrontation, but it wasn't Sukarno but the main people that started confrontation was British intelligence, linked with Alan Dulles. And Alan Dulles started it because CIA gun runner, what's his name? Rose of Texas. What's his name? Forget his name, but he took, he took small arms, just rifles, you know, landed them on the coast of Sarawak, and made a big pretense that they were given to they were given to the Chinese Communist underground, and they young kids, basically 18 school kids, young adults. They weren't military inclined at all. And. Way, when the when the Bruno revolt started in December 62 the British, they knew exactly what was happening. They were monitoring everything very closely. They didn't go to Brunei. They went to Sarawak and chased these, chase these CCO, Chinese communist organization, chased them across into Indonesia, and that's what started confrontation. You know, that's really what started confrontation. And Jakarta shouted out, oh, we must help these our brothers. So they started to squabble and but Sukarno had nothing to do with it. Subundrio did. Subundri was a little bit working together with the British as well. I've seen records in London, indicating that, but he veered back again towards Indonesia. And so he's whatever's good at the time for subandrio, and good for him, mainly good for himself, that is, he would do. You know, he's very self seeking, but medical doctor he was. But anyway, and Kennedy was faced with the problem of having no follow up to the New York agreement. So he and Sukarno agreed that Kennedy come visit Jakarta in 1964 early 64 and that would that would be enough together Sukarno and Kennedy together, because Kennedy had such adulation after his role in The New York agreement. People in Indonesia just loved him, you know. And if he stepped in together with Sukarno, who didn't have enough power, Joan said to stop confrontation, because of all the different currents, political currents at the time, but with Kennedy, he would have, and if they'd stopped confrontation, and US aid for Indonesia would resume, and Kennedy would have come out on top. You know, he would have been reelected. He probably would have got the Nobel Prize for Peace that year as well, because he would have stopped conferences, and everything would have been hunky dory, but it didn't work out that way, because Kennedy's trip to Jakarta, he was interfering in Allen Dulles plan for regime change, you know, for kicking it. He would have supported Sukarno for President life presidency for Sukarno, that would have meant if Kennedy had gone over there and stopped computation together with Sukarno, he had to, he had to be that visit had to be stopped in the same way that Hammarskjöld’s visit had to be stopped because it threatened New Guinea was an earlier stage, 61 but in by 63 the whole, whole concept of Sino-Soviet dispute that it was looming on the horizon, and Alan Daly's had made the declaration that it wasn't, it wasn't real. It was still possibly a trick from the, you know, the the other half in the Cold War, you know, officially, President Kennedy said, Okay, on that basis, we will not count this Sino-Soviet, Soviet dispute as real. It's we'll look at it as not, not significant at this stage. So he proceeded with everything according to that understanding, because the Dulles knew it was full on. You know, Sino-Soviet dispute was full on, but he just didn't pass the information on to Kennedy. So when the time came for stopping Kennedy's visit to Jakarta, which Dulles had to do to maintain his own his investment, I'd say, for his no that would have been seven years or so. He'd been investing time and energy in the adirons rebellion, and the whole business was New Guinea. And he had to stop that visit for Kennedy going to Jakarta, and he got support from the Joint Chiefs of Staff, because Kennedy's visit would have disrupted this plan for the Sino-Soviet, you know, for making it, making it worse. It was going to make it it was bad as it was. It was going to make it worse if, well, that was Delhi's plan to make it worse. It was regime change, but Kennedy's visit would have, would have stopped it, and Sukarno would have remained president. So I think that's why they think that would have been how Dulles got support from the Joint Chiefs of Staff, and that's why everything was so organized in Dallas. It was just phenomenal organization.

S: Yes, it was. And it seems like Kennedy's removal, it's like, okay, you get Dag Hammarskjöld removed and out of the way. Now you have Kennedy removed and out of the way. And, of course, that 1964 It to Indonesia never happens because he's assassinated, and it seems like that really paves the way for this coup to take place and for Sukarno to just be removed. 

G: Sukarno built this wonderful, big lodge for Kennedy and Jackie to spend time in when they came, but they never got the opportunity to go there. It's been converted into some sort of museum. 

S: Wow. So this coup that occurs gives way to what's been labeled as a so called communist purge, and estimates vary. We were talking about this earlier estimates vary on how many hundreds of 1000s of people were killed, and many others were in prison. So I want to ask just kind of a two part question here before we wrap it up, because you were talking about your population numbers and how we tend to underestimate the number of deaths that occurred. So I want you to talk about that. And then I also, again, we're speculating here. We're kind of maybe painting with watercolors a little bit. But how do you think that situation might have been different had JFK and or Hammarskjöld? Maybe them both, if they had both lived.

G: The 65 coup in Indonesia, wouldn't have happened like that at all. And like 1 million Indonesians, Japanese, mainly, some Sumatra as well. But well Indonesians anyway, 1 million, they say now is around that figure were killed. You know, bodies. Rivers were just clogged with bodies, apparently. You know, in fact, I was over in an area around Mullan recently, and I found another killing spot just by accident. I heard people were taken along there, and came to a river one night, and there were 10 minutes, 10 minutes consecutive, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, and that must have been killing people and throwing them in the river. Oh, my God. Wasn't a machine that was separate shots, bang, bang, bang, and everybody was told to stay in their houses and not come out. But they don't really know how many see that site only. I found it just, just a year, and a half ago, was a new site, and I sort of reported it in but so many killing was just unbelievable. That was 1965 that would not have happened had Kennedy made the visit and Sukarno stayed as president. The Killing occurred in under Suharto and that's what I find amazing in what happened in West New Guinea, in former Netherlands. New Guinea, because as soon as Suharto had enough power from Chicano, not officially president, but he they call it super sama. It was 1966 66 March. And 66 it's just an abbreviation for the 11th of March. I think 1966 and soon as Slater got that power, he started bombing in West Papua. I mean, it's no wonder the Papuans could have been an opportunity to participate as sort of a province of Indonesia. Might work out under Sukarno, I think a lot of people would have been a lot of paplanes could have participated as a Papuan province of Indonesia, but under Suharto, wow, as soon as he got into power, he started B 26 bombing and pops to teach them a lesson or something, and just basically bombing continued up until 1969 when the when the act of free choice occurred. So what's that? Three years and they so many Papuans were killed. It's just it makes a mockery of the whole act of free choice in 1969 it was said to have been unanimous, unanimously, they wanted to stay part of Indonesia when the US documents that I've found said 95 or 99% of pop ones did not want to stay part of Indonesia, and that's from US official documents. But it was all it's all been turned around, and history has been rewritten and and this so called active free choices, sort of the the approval that cited as the UN approval, but it was never actually un approval at all. Was UN acknowledgment that had happened. Yes or no was left in the air, you know. But that's how it is today, and it's, that's what? 6950, how many years is that? Seven? 55 something like that, more than half a century ago, and Papuans since then have just been treated as second class citizens. Well, not even citizens, not even human beings. Half the time. Some of them have got amazing ability that some areas of Papua have got strange ability in maths and physics. I don't know why. In fact, one of the high school students in Papua was went to Poland for the high school student physics competition. You know, this is like 10 years ago, and he won it. He came up with this amazing theory, where he got it from, and because some American University gave him a scholarship straight away, and he went over and did his master's, I think it was in heavy engineering and things, and came back, and he was, he wanted, he's thinking of doing a PhD, but I don't think he's gone ahead. He was working up in within the in the gas area. BP, is British Gas area, which is, if you look at New Guinea, it's shaped like a bird. Well, it's up in the head of the bird. BP, you know. And he was working up there in in the in the gas field. And I asked him once, okay, you're working Monday to Friday. What do you do on weekends? Oh, he said I did in the canoe, and I paddled across to the villages on the other side, and I teach them maths and physics. Oh, wow. Oh, wonder they're good at maths and physics. You know, they've seen a lot of them seem to have this ability. I heard recently there were some more prizes given. Again, maths and physics seem to be some sort of natural ability there. So I was going to say about that gas area. We mentioned gold, oil, copper, but gas came later. But even in 1958 I read a report from a Dutch destroyer up in. Look under the chin of the bird, at the head of the bird there. There's a big bay there. And one of these Dutch destroyers dropped a practice depth charge, and it hit the hit the bottom was a bit shallow, and oil and gas, they said, started boring up. And it was just so much. It was embarrassing. You know, they didn't know how to stop it. I'm not sure how they stopped it in the end, but I just read the report this oil and gas was bubbling up, and they weren't sure what to do. You know, they just found a big gas field. So that's gives you an idea of how rich the territory is. You know, I mean, that should have been reported, and it should have contributed to the it could have proved that the country wasn't bereft of natural resources, you know. But it was all hushed up again, and they said, Oh, the Papuans are primitive. Michael Rockefeller was disappeared as well, you know. Remember reading that in the book? You know? Yes, I did. They said he was eaten by cannibals. You know, in 19 what was that? 61 I forget the end of 61 November. I think it was. But in fact, Michael Rockefeller was 24 kilometers out to sea when he decided panicked and decided to go to swim ashore, because I interviewed the guy Rene was think who was with him in the boat. The boat overturned in an estuary and got washed out all afternoon, all night, in the morning. They later estimated when they got when russing got wet rescue, but Rockefeller tried to swim and disappeared. But wasting, they estimated 24 kilometers, and when they picked up wassing The next day. He was 35 kilometers out to sea. That's where he was rescued. But at 24 kilometers in the morning, Michael Rockefeller panicked, put a petrol tank under his arm and started paddling, swimming. He's a good swimmer, but they didn't they couldn't even see land. There's no land visible, you know. And they're swimming against the swimming against the current. And that's not the river current. That was the coastal current, you know. So the silly boy is swimming parallel to the coast, because he would have got taken by shark in no time, well, an hour or two, but he was 24 kilometers off the coast when he started swimming, and he wasn't even swimming towards the coast. So that was the end, and that created such bad publicity for the pipelines. Oh, he's eaten on the beach with sago, you know, by cannibals and so many books have been published, really saying the same thing. They make a good makes a good read. I suppose, reading about cannibals and the richest boy in the world sort of thing under son of Nelson Rockefeller, etc, etc. But, yeah, it's all made up Rockefeller himself. Nelson Rockefeller visited and visited the coastline in search for the sun, and he said it was either a shark or he drowned, right? But. Then he went home again, you know, after about five, six days. But the person or the group that started the rumor about rock, about cannibals was a, it was a an oil exploration team drilling nearby. And I mean that every day they used to send a helicopter with lunch for Rockefeller and Rene wassing and Rockefeller. And they had two pop one policemen in a little, little boat, little raft, which is two canoes with a platform and a sunroof and an outboard motor. You know, they used to send, they used to call into the coast, and this helicopter would arrive with lunch. I mean, that's a wonderful way to travel, you know. So they went too far away from civilization, you know. And there were no cannibals at the time. There were cannibals before, you know. And that's when I said, Remember General, General nasuti, and told me my father was a can of my grandfather was a cannibal because he conducted an, a a little bit of investigation himself into the into the disappearance of Michael Rockefeller later on, and he concluded the whole cannibal story was nonsense. He told me nonsense. Then he said, My grandfather was a really he was trying to say, look, here I am head of the army. You know, times change. You know, my grandfather was accountable, but I've I'm not, you know, you know, anyway, he's quite funny like that, the way he sort of, he was a real military man, but he wasn't a politician. I mean, a politician wouldn't dare say such a thing. My grandfather was a cannibal.

S; Well, your book is full of fascinating stories and interesting people, and it's chock full of information that I never knew. And I would really encourage everyone listening, whether you're American or not, definitely, I have a penchant toward the American audience, because being American myself and realizing just how much particularly about world history that we never were exposed to in school or even in university years, I would implore everybody listening to pick up a copy of JFK versus Alan Dulles and really understand what happened, how it's relevant if you're interested in the Murder of JFK, the mysterious death of Dag Hammarskjöld and potentially how the world could have been different had either one of those two men, or better yet, both of them had lived a normal lifespan and been able to do the things that they had in mind to do for the betterment of the world. You absolutely have to read Dr Poulgrain’s book JFK versus Alan Dulles, and even with the time difference, with me being in the United States on Central Time, and with you being in Brisbane, in Australia, I think it's probably what after midnight now where you are, I want to really thank you for taking the time to come on.

G: Seven minutes past 1am. I hope I'm not keeping people awake here.

S: Well, I sure appreciate you taking the time to come on. It's been a pleasure to visit with you.

G: Thank you very much, Sara 

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